What is "Crucified with Christ"? AKA the infamous Meat and Milk seals debate

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chrysostom

Well-known member
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Crucified with Christ
nailed to the cross
born again
etc.
are phrases from the bible that are parroted way too often without really understanding their meaning
 

graceandpeace

New member
Howdy Mr Deets:

Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
Some confuse the doctrine of being "crucified with Christ" with being born again/initial salvation.


Mr Deets:

How many salvations or stages to salvation are there?

Salvation is one event...as I have said...not two...or three, or four, or etc...there are stages of maturity within it, however, and this is what I am speaking of.


We are born again as a babe, and we grow in grace and in knowledge, agree?


Peter said, grow in what?

2 Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Paul said the same...there is one spirit; and it speaks truth.

Paul said, 'put on the fulness of the stature of Christ', I already gave that verse in another post, so go read of it...we are not mature in knowledge upon initial salvation, and we can only have assurance once we are a mature man.







I said:

Quote:
I believe it is what occurs once you have made your calling and election SURE. In other words, once you have had your faith tested, and, you can no longer be tossed to or fro with every wind of doctrine.

Mr Deets:

What if I feel that I'm sure, but then I stumble? Or if I'm sure, but then I realize I'm not? Does that mean I haven't been crucified with Him?

No, once you are mature; you can never again stumble...so if you are still unsure, you are not yet mature; but you are saved, and so the commandment would be, to continue to grow in grace and knowledge unto the mature man.




I said:

Quote:
I would like to discuss this...issue.

Anyone up for it?



I said:

Quote:
My main focus is on that all who are saved are born again, but not all who are born again, have learned the WILL of God, or purpose of God, for their salvation.


Mr Deets:

Okay, but that has nothing to do with being crucified with Him.

Yes it does, if you understand it correctly, in mho...the teaching of it defines the mature man.

The man who has learned to be able to discern good and evil.

Only when one surrenders his full will to God, can a man be complete. WE do not do this upon initial salvation, for we must have the HOLY SPIRIT IN ORDER TO GET IT DONE.

THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT AS A FACT.

Example:

The carnal man cannot hear the law of God, so how in the world would or could anyone carnal begin to obey Him?

His law is faith working by love, not the law of moses, btw..so, lets not get side tracked into that wrong understanding too.





Quote:
In order to never fall, you must be crucified with Christ.





Quote:
That means, you must learn and grow in grace and in knowledge, until you KNOW and can discern good and evil.



Mr Deets:

So, we have to work for it?

No, we have to submit...that is not a work, persay....is it? We submit via our own freewill, He did not save us and remove it, nor did He say we did not have before salvation. We have always had the ability to submit to Him...even in the carnal state...otherwise, none of us would ever be saved. Submitting and hearing or grasping 'truth' is not the same thing. Faith is about submitting to what you do not yet KNOW OR UNDERSTAND...IT IS TAKING THE INITIAL STEP, WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS TRUE. We must define the word by how God does...hope in things UNSEEN..so, we are saved initially, without assurance...period, and, then we grow to that assurance, and this is what the bible teaches....


Quote:
It is at this point that you have died to the law. You cannot immediately die to the law, upon initial salvation, because it takes having the holy spirit in order to get it done.

Mr Deets:


Romans 8:1-2. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." (Emphasis mine)

Do you see the part that says, 'who do not walk according to the flesh'? If so, you must begin to see that it is conditional upon how you walk...if you choose to walk in the flesh, you are choosing to not SUBMIT TO THE SPIRIT..AND, THE SPIRIT CAN BE QUENCHED BY DOING THIS.

He gave us the Holy Spirit so that we could CHOOSE to submit to Him...and, His will.


Mr Deets:

Again, I have to work for it? I must grow in grace and knowledge before I am in Him, which is when I am dead to the law? There sure are lots of conditions to salvation...

No, you grow in grace and in knowledge AFTER you are in Him, and with the power of the Holy Spirit, you have the choice to submit to Him...did you read my post?



I said:

Quote:
We are saved/justified, without the law,(born again), and, then we must die to the law/be crucified with Jesus.


Mr Deets:


I didn't realize it was a 2 part or three part deal. Revelation 3:20. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

It is conditional ONLY after you are saved..for He gives you the POWER, through the Holy Spirit to submit to His will. You did not have that power, while you were yet carnal...which is why salvation is a FREE gift, to begin with.....but, IF you choose of your own freewill, AFTERwards and quench the Holy SPIRIT, BECAUSE THAT IS THE POWER THAT ENABLES YOU TO DO HIS WILL, THEN YOU CAN BE LED BACK TO UNBELIEF, OF YOUR OWN FREEWILL.

He saved you to be a LIGHT; THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR SALVATION, AND YOU HAVE THE FREEWILL TO PUT THAT LIGHT UNDER A BASKET AND SNUFF IT OUT.



I said:

Quote:
Is anyone on this board with me?

Mr Deets:


Not me. If we must earn it, or work for it, then we are hopeless.


As I have said, you do not earn it, but you must SUBMIT to it; or you are quenching out the FREE gift that He did give you freely.

You are not a robot, you have freewill, and you get to CHOOSE to do HIS will, or go backwards...remember Lot's wife....remember the dog that returned to his own vomit....God has never forced His will on anyone, and it is a false gospel to say or claim He does.


He wants YOU to choose to love Him back, and to CHOOSE to accept and submit to His will....this is the other part of why you WERE freely saved.

You could not do that, without the HOLY spirit; and now that you have it, it is UNBELIEF TO DENY THE POWER OF GOD, THAT HE GAVE YOU FREELY.


'There is no one righteous, there is no one good but God, there is no one who does good, etc...'

Yes, under the law of moses; as the carnal man...God gives YOU the HOLY SPIRIT to give YOU the POWER to choose to do good; stop denying the facts:

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all [men], especially unto them who are of the household of faith.


You deny the power of God, via the Holy Spirit if you do not agree with Paul, who taught the not only how we are saved by a free gift, but the responsibility that would come alongside IT, due to the fact that God gave you the power to do good.

Unto him who knows to do good and does it not, it is SIN; and it is sin of unbeleif:

Jesus:

Luk 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy [it]?

It was the pharasee that denied it was illegal to do good. We must rightly define the law of Christ/faith working by love from the law of moses, that no one could do good under.


Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

Paul:

1 Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.


Hbr 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.




If I were you, I would ask yourself why you believe a lie?
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Not true..read Col 1, before you get to chapters 2, and 3.

One must remain in the faith; have love perfected, and then he can never fall.


Once love is perfected; and the christian is mature...they can never fall.

Let's teach the truth..today...


:up:

So....the scriptures I quoted are not true? :dizzy:


Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance(past tense) of the saints in light.
Col 1:13 He has delivered us(past tense) from the domain of darkness and transferred us(past tense) to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have(present tense) redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
So....the scriptures I quoted are not true? :dizzy:


Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance(past tense) of the saints in light.
Col 1:13 He has delivered us(past tense) from the domain of darkness and transferred us(past tense) to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have(present tense) redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

You have to pass the GP probational period (which is general, obscure, subjective) before you can claim these good things.
 

graceandpeace

New member
So....the scriptures I quoted are not true? :dizzy:


Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance(past tense) of the saints in light.
Col 1:13 He has delivered us(past tense) from the domain of darkness and transferred us(past tense) to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have(present tense) redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Of course they are true...you need to read them in context of what you have been rescued from, and why He rescued you from it, and what He NOW expects your life to be....

He did NOT rescue you from the power of sin/law of moses, so that you could live any way you choose..HE saved you so that you could do HIS will..and, walk in the SPIRIT.

You are NOW to serve Him in that new way...faith working by love, and if you choose NOT TO, YOUR SALVATION IS GOOD FOR NOTHING, BECAUSE HE SAVED YOU FOR A PURPOSE.


Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Do you understand what it means to serve in Newness of the Spirit?

If not, then you are not yet crucified.

Salvation is not a free gift to give you a license to sin..it is the free gift that sets you free from the 'letter of the law', in order to receive the Holy Spirit that enables you to LOVE.

Do not deny the power of the gospel.

It is unbelief...to deny the power of it.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Do not deny the power of the gospel.

Silly woman thinks the power of the gospel is about behavior.


Here's the power,



Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,



Maybe she will get saved and have the eyes of her understanding enlightened.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Teaching a believer that they can never fall, is the snare of the devil, it keeps believers in satans trap/snare.

John 10:29

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.


Full of fraud and deceit.

once you have learned the full will of God for your salvation, which is to be able as a mature man, to know the difference fully between good and evil:

Genesis 3

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.


Full of fraud and deceit. You are an enemy of Christ. I know you hate my God. You devil worshipping witch from hell. That is what you are. And that is why I call you that name. You hate grace, and the peace it gives people. You are wolf in sheeps clothing.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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once you have learned the full will of God for your salvation, which is to be able as a mature man, to know the difference fully between good and evil:

Genesis 3

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.


In case any believer thinks she is just mistaken or maybe we don't understand her. What an evil person. When the law came in I died. When the law came to her, she lived.
 

rocketman

Resident Rocket Surgeon
Hall of Fame
Genesis 3

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.


In case any believer thinks she is just mistaken or maybe we don't understand her. What an evil person. When the law came in I died. When the law came to her, she lived.

Or does she mean she is like God now that she is mature knowing good and evil? :idunno: seems this statement was not well thought out...
 

graceandpeace

New member
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Mat 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

losing one's life for His sake, is what it is to be crucified with Christ.

It is giving up your will, and walking fully in His.

It has already been proven that this cannot be done, without the Holy Spirit; for without the Holy Spirit you are yet carnal, and cannot even hear the WILL of God or His law/faith working by love, because you are carnally discerned:

1 Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.


1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.


1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


The carnal man cannot please God, and Paul explains how and WHEN a christian mortifies the deeds of the flesh, and it is NOT while they are yet carnal/unsaved:

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

It is AFTER He dwells in you that you do the following:


Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.


Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Rom 8:12 ¶ Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It is ONLY through the Spirit that we can mortify the deeds of the body; so those who teach you do this, upon initial salvation in order to be saved, are liars...We can do nothing without HIM.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Or does she mean she is like God now that she is mature knowing good and evil?

That is what the law does. It reveals your sin. That is why satan wanted them to eat the fruit. That is why she wants people to eat the fruit.
 

graceandpeace

New member
Or does she mean she is like God now that she is mature knowing good and evil? :idunno: seems this statement was not well thought out...

I mean this:

Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


I thought I already posted this, but perhaps you didnt read it, or grasp what it says?
 

john w

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Not true..read Col 1, before you get to chapters 2, and 3.

One must remain in the faith; have love perfected, and then he can never fall.


Once love is perfected; and the christian is mature...they can never fall.

Let's teach the truth..today...


:up:

"Let's teach the truth..today..."-Daffy Duck-ette


Put your teachers away, and embrace the bible.”-GP


"I am here to speak the truth; not to teach it."-GP

GP: "The other day at womans bible study/baptist, the teacher told me..."


"Once you are confirmed; you are to be a teacher...yourself. "-GP

"we do NOT need men to teach us the bible........those in Christ do not need any man to teach them"-GP


God never ordained men to teach men.”-GP



The hits keep coming....
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
I certainly agree with that, but the bible itself defines each one.

"Some of us allow the bible to interpret itself.....Like I said, I will let the bible interpret itself."-GP

Hush...no more "teaching."

Next up, part of the Trifecta: "HEAR JESUS."
 
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