ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Nang

TOL Subscriber
Limited atonement may fit TULIP, but it is not biblical.

O.K. you have made an asserted declaration denying the plain teaching of the Word of God . . .so you must now substantiate and prove from Scripture that the atonement of Jesus Christ was not limited, but indeed, universal.

For either the atonement of Jesus Christ was limited or it was universal.

Waiting . . .

Nang
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
O.K. you have made an asserted declaration denying the plain teaching of the Word of God . . .so you must now substantiate and prove from Scripture that the atonement of Jesus Christ was not limited, but indeed, universal.

For either the atonement of Jesus Christ was limited or it was universal.

Waiting . . .

Nang


It begs the question to say TULIP is biblical. In fact, it is deductive, preconceived, and not biblical. The 4-point Calvinists would also quibble with you. In other threads, we have beat this dead horse. It is not the topic of this thread (bunny trail).

The atonement is provision for all and intended for all. John 3:16 Jesus loved the sinful world (Johannine use of 'world'), not just the elect. He is not willing for any to perish (2 Peter 3:9).

Part of the resolution is to distinguish the grounds (the reason for/by which) of salvation (grace, person and work of Christ) and the conditions of salvation (not without which; repentant faith/continuance in the faith).
The objective provision (efficacious for all who believe; not all believe, so not all are saved) must be subjectively appropriated. Grace and the gift of eternal life are not earned or merited just because one responds to the convincing and convicting of the Spirit. God initiates and provides salvation, but He is not a divine rapist. Reciprocal love relationships involve two parties. Salvation is not caused or coerced (faith precedes regeneration; regeneration does not precede faith or there is no good reason why universalism would not be true since God's love is impartial and unlimited).

In your view, the cross is limited in effectiveness and God's love is arbitrary (both unbiblical).
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
It begs the question to say TULIP is biblical. In fact, it is deductive, preconceived, and not biblical.

Who is talking TULIP, but you?


The 4-point Calvinists would also quibble with you.

There is no such thing as a "4-point Calvinist." These types are Amyraldians.


The atonement is provision for all and intended for all. John 3:16 Jesus loved the sinful world (Johannine use of 'world'), not just the elect. He is not willing for any to perish (2 Peter 3:9).

So say all Arminians.

Part of the resolution is to distinguish the grounds (the reason for/by which) of salvation (grace, person and work of Christ) and the conditions of salvation (not without which; repentant faith/continuance in the faith).

The only "ground" for salvation, is the loving grace and love of God for His Elect, chosen and created in Jesus Christ. DIVINE ELECTION is the sole ground presented in Scripture for the salvation of sinners.


The objective provision (efficacious for all who believe; not all believe, so not all are saved) must be subjectively appropriated.

Pray tell, what are you talking about? Scripture, please!!!

Grace and the gift of eternal life are not earned or merited just because one responds to the convincing and convicting of the Spirit.

Agreed. Faith is a gift, not a work.


God initiates and provides salvation,

Agreed.

but He is not a divine rapist.

I absolutely hate this argument. It is disgusting. There if nothing "forced" about the love of God for His people. And His people love Him because He first loved them (I John 4:19) which does not describe force or rape at all. This "rape" argument is purely demonic and anyone with an IQ over 90 should toss it. IMO.


Reciprocal love relationships involve two parties.

Nope. You are wrong and have been taught wrong.

Grace is not a two-sided love . . . it is a one-sided love of God bestowed upon His enemies who hate His Person. This reality is what makes the love of God for sinful man to be grace, and not just somehow "reciprocal" on God's part. God loved us while we were yet sinners.

Salvation is not caused

Oh yes, it is! If God had not chosen to save me despite my sins, I would surely burn in hell forever, for I would have never choosed to love Him. I had no choice to do so, for my will was held in bondage to serving sin, death, and the devil. I hated God and opposed God and thoroughly rejected Him . . .until He caused me to love Him . . .by His grace and powerful Holy Spirit.



(faith precedes regeneration; regeneration does not precede faith

Not so. A sinner dead in transgressions must first be spiritually resurrected to new life (regenerated) before he can see (believe, comprehend) the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)

Otherwise, one teaches that God resurrects the spiritually dead, according to their work of faith (belief and repentance), prior to even having the Holy Spirit . . .supposedly achieved in the putrid flesh somehow. Impossible!


In your view, the cross is limited in effectiveness and God's love is arbitrary (both unbiblical).

In my view, the cross work of Jesus Christ was 100% efficacious, for His blood justified and saves all the Father gave Him to save. Jesus promised the Father He would save all of them, and lose none. (John 17:12, 10:28)

God's love is elective, not arbitrary.

But I know you have not been properly taught the doctrines of grace via Covenant election, so it is not surpising you cannot comprehend or appreciate what Godly election entails.

The Calvinist believes that the limited atonement of Jesus Christ saved 100% of those elect by God that Christ represented (as federal head) in His death.

The Arminian (and all various forms of semi-pelagian views, including OVT'ers) believe that Jesus Christ atoned for all but only succeeded in saving some . . .and they have no percentage to offer, of what that portion of mankind might be covered by the blood sacrifice of Christ.

So they teach a atonement that saves 100% . . . but the question is still asked . . .how much of mankind will suffer in hell, despite the (supposed 100% effacious) death and resurrection of Christ?

33% 66% 001%

They do not know. They cannot tell us. All they can admit, is that a percentage of the sinful human race will still be judged and thrown into the lake of fire, for lack of being found named in the Lamb's Book of Life.


Nang
 

SOTK

New member
What really gets me about OV (one of many things actually) is the seemingly contradictory belief that God knows some things about the future but not all. And before all of you OV Apologists start jumping all over me with the "strawman" accusations, I want to state that in the years I've been on TOL, I've yet to really a witness an adequate and logical explanation of this.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
What really gets me about OV (one of many things actually) is the seemingly contradictory belief that God knows some things about the future but not all. And before all of you OV Apologists start jumping all over me with the "strawman" accusations, I want to state that in the years I've been on TOL, I've yet to really a witness an adequate and logical explanation of this.

Good observation on your part. It is not a "strawman" accusation, for here is one example of exactly such contradiction, that was posted just today:

"The future isn't completely open. God planned before creation that Jesus would die for our sins if we sinned. He is wise enough to know how things will turn out most of the time, too." Patman

Go figure . . . :dizzy:
 

patman

Active member
Hello Patman,

The scripture inidicates that God determined that the heathen (Rome) would
join with the rulers (of Israel) to bring about the crucifixion...could it have happened any other way without contradicting the prophecy of Psalms 2?

I guess I still don't completely understand the OV.

Yes, it could have went differently, but contradicting the prophecy sometimes happens...

This is going to be a longer post. Please read it very carefully and think about it for a few days. You should understand that prophecy is there to inspire righteousness, it is not meant to be be 100% accurate. Accuracy was never God's intent for prophecy.

Are you familiar with the book of Daniel? There a lot of prophecies that you can track dead on, including many that involve the Messiah. But some of those didn't come to pass.

Daniel 9
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;


The command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was made by Cyrus in 457 BC.

The "week" represents 7 years.

7 x 7 = 49. 7 x 62 = 434. 434 + 49 = 483. This leads us to conclude that 483 years would pass from the command until the Messiah. As mentioned that took place in 457 BC. To find out when the prophecy is to be fullfilled, we have to "count backwards" (because years in BC go down, not up), so for lack of a better way 457 BC + 483 years is 457 - 483 and that is -26 orrr 26 AD.

My math is ball park, it does not take into account the Jewish calendar, leap years, and other considerations, but you can see how a quick figuring of the years gets us so close to the year Jesus was crucified (32 AD). For a compelling calculation of how this prophecy was fulfilled to the day, click here and look up the 70 weeks question.

I said all that to say this. The second part of the prophecy was not fulfilled. If you read further in Daniel 9, there is another week that something very interesting happens:

Daniel 9
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

So after Messiah is cut off, a prince was supposed to come, and he was going to establish a covenant for 1 week, or 7 years. After that, the end was to come.

I must now back track a little. I started in the middle of the prophecy. It mentioned 7 weeks and 62 weeks. That makes 69 weeks. This final week makes 70 weeks.

Daniel 9
24 “ Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

You can see that the intent was that all this happen in order. No gaps, no leaps. 7 years after Jesus was "cut off" this "prince" was supposed to make war and then the end would come, and not only that, no more transgression or sin, everlasting righteousness, sealing up of prophecy.

What really happened? Well, we still sin, more prophecy was added to the Bible in the book of revelation and we are still here 2000 years later.

Not convienced that this was supposed to happen right after Jesus was crucified? Jesus tells his disciples the end was coming "soon," well 2000+ years is not soon. Jesus meant soon as in sooon. As in their generation.

Mark 9:1
And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.

He wasn't talking about the transfiguration. He was talking about the full power of the kingdom of God present on earth in power.

Matthew 16:28
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

He told his disciples to watch for the abomination of desolation spoken of in the very same chapter of daniel, in the very same prophecy I am telling you about. Remember, the abomination is to take place in that final week, and here Jesus is telling his disciples they would see it happen:

Mark 13
14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Jesus is telling his closest disciples what they are going to experience. They, the 12, will be persecuted, they, the 12, will see the abomination.

Then later in the chapter, Jesus says it ever so clearly:

Mark 13
30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

But it didn't happen. That last week never came to be. Why? Because the way things were going, God had to change the plan.

Mark 13
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

Israel was supposed to preach the gospel to the entire world, and be persecuted by it. But as we can see from the present state of Israel, they never did embrace the gospel, they certainly didn't preach it.

So God went straight to the Gentiles through Paul as another way to get them to turn back to them.

Romans 11:11 I say then, have they[Israel] stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

In going to the Gentiles, and having to wait on Israel to agree to be a part of his kingdom, God has choose to wait. He changed the outcome of a carefully planned out prophecy for their sake, to make them righteous before he returns.

I hope you can see that God doesn't use prophecy as an "See, I told you so," but rather, "This is my plan if you do this or that," instead. The future is not settled, this allows God to be dynamic, but still concise with his plan to save the world through prophecy.
 

patman

Active member
I will stick with my points.

......

It seems you are motivated to explain OVT, and I am motivated to explain contrasting Covenant Theology . . and will do so at any opportunity. Sorry if I abused your sensitivities this time. Maybe you should just shoot me.

Nang

:yawn:

You were the one who butted in, Nang... If you don't care what I have to say, why should you expect me to read your post? It only seems fair.

Don't worry, tho, maybe someone else will read it.

I feel silly to have to tell you that my sensitivities are just fine... I could tell you were real concerned, but don't worry, there is no need to shoot you :kookoo:

My reply to you was just my impression of your attitude here. You are the one reading emotions into it:)

:wave2:
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
In an earlier dialog between Philetus and myself…
17. The doctrine of election is repeatedly taught and emphasized throughout the Scriptures.
Right again! But again, your interpretation and application stinks! All are 'elected' to receive or reject God's offer of salvation by GRACE through Faith but not all will respond favorably. Those who do are the 'elect' to receive power/the right to become children of God.
Universal curse/Partial solution? The Calvinistic view of God is of a weak, controlling despot that doesn’t know the first thing about love, redemption or relationship. The God that has all the power and freedom to love Jacob and Hate Esau and still goes to the cross to redeem ALL humanity is the God revealed in Christian scripture. Total solution.
Sunday School 101
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Clearly, I believe in limited redemption. Negative rhetoric notwithstanding, to keep this long response from getting longer, let’s examine at the matter more carefully in a separate post.
The question under the subject of "Limited Atonement" is, Was Christ’s sacrifice an offering of Himself as sacrifice for the whole human race, for every individual without distinction or exception; or did His death have special applicability to the elect? In other words, was the sacrifice of Christ intended to make salvation for all mankind possible, or was it intended to render certain the salvation of those who had been given to Christ by the Father?

Arminians (and other Arminian derivatives) hold that Christ died for all men alike, while Calvinists hold that in the intention and secret plan of God, Christ died for the elect only, and that Christ’s death had only an incidental reference to others in so far as they are partakers of common grace. The meaning might be brought more clearly amplified if we used the phrase Limited Redemption rather than Limited Atonement. Calvinists and Arminians believe the Atonement is strictly an infinite transaction. But for Calvinists, the limitation emerges, theologically, in the application of the benefits of the atonement, that is, in redemption.

No limits can be set on the value or power of the atonement which Christ made, since it depends upon and is measured by the one making it—Christ—and the value of His suffering was infinite. Therefore, the atonement was infinitely meritorious and might have saved every member of the human race had that been God's plan. The atonement was limited only in the sense that it was intended for, and is applied to, particular persons; namely for those who are actually saved.

Universal atonement destroys its inherent value. When applied to everyone, while we know some will be lost, universal atonement makes salvation objectively possible for all but it does not actually save anybody. To Arminians’ the theory of atonement makes it possible for persons to cooperate with God’s divine grace and therefore save themselves—if they will.

If atonement makes salvation possible, it applies to all persons. If atonement effectively secures salvation, it has reference only the elect. The choice is an atonement of high value or an atonement of wide extension. The Arminian limits the power of the atonement, saying that the atonement itself does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits the atonement quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively.

Arminian related atonement:
If the benefits of the atonement are universal and unlimited, the atonement must have been
1. a sacrifice to blot out the curse upon mankind through the fall in Adam;
2. a mere substitute for the execution of the law which God in His sovereignty saw fit to accept in lieu of what the sinner was bound to render;
3. not a perfect satisfaction which fulfilled the demands of justice;
4. God no longer demands perfect obedience as He did of Adam;

5. God now offers salvation on lower terms in that
5a. God removes legal obstacles and accepts the faith and evangelical obedience as a person with a graciously restored ability could render, if he chose, with the Holy Spirit of course aiding in a general way; and

5b. grace would be extended in that God offers an easier way of salvation—“God accepts fifty cents on the dollar”, since the crippled sinner can pay no more.
If the Arminian doctrine were true it would mean that millions of those for whom Christ died are finally lost, because they refused to believe, and that salvation is thus never applied to many of those for whom it was earned by Christ. Spurgeon said: "If Christ has died for you, you can never be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sins He will not punish you. ('Payment God's justice cannot twice demand; first, at the bleeding Savior's hand, and then again at mine.') How can God be just if he punished Christ, the substitute, and then man himself afterwards?" In short, the ransom for many, but not all (Matthew 20:28), is misunderstood and God is unjust to demand an extreme penalty from the substitute (Christ) and then from the persons themselves.

Calvinistic Atonement:
If the benefits of the atonement are not universal and unlimited, the atonement must have been
1. the law of perfect obedience originally given to Adam was permanent;
2. that God has never done anything which would give the impression that the law was too rigid in its requirements, or too severe in its penalty, or that it stood in need either of abrogation or of derogation;
3. divine justice demands that the sinner shall be punished, either in himself or in his substitute;
4. Christ acted in a strictly substitutionary way for His people, made a full satisfaction for their sins, thereby blotting out the curse from Adam and all persons temporal sins;
5. by Christ’s sinless life He perfectly kept for them the law which Adam had broken, thus earning for His people the reward of eternal life;
6. the requirement for salvation now as always has been is perfect obedience;
7. that the merits of Christ are imputed to His people as the only basis of their salvation;
8. that Christ’s people enter heaven clothed only with the cloak of His perfect righteousness and utterly destitute of any merit properly their own;

9. grace, pure grace, is extended not in lowering the requirements for salvation but in the substitution of Christ for His people;
9a. Christ took their place before the law and did for them what they could not do for themselves;

10. this principle of atonement is such that in every way so designed to impress upon mankind the absolute perfection and unchangeable obligation of the law which was originally given to Adam;
10a. it is not relaxed or set aside, but is appropriately honored to show its excellence; and
11. in behalf of those who are saved, for whom Christ acted, and in behalf of those who are subjected to everlasting punishment, the law in its majesty is enforced and executed.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
What really gets me about OV (one of many things actually) is the seemingly contradictory belief that God knows some things about the future but not all. And before all of you OV Apologists start jumping all over me with the "strawman" accusations, I want to state that in the years I've been on TOL, I've yet to really a witness an adequate and logical explanation of this.

The two motif theme is defensible from Scripture. It is not contradictory at all. The things that God predestines and brings about by His ability are knowable (Is. 46 and Is. 48). The mistake is to extrapolate these specific things to include all things. God does not predestine every moral and mundane choice in the universe at the expense of genuine freedom. He simply choses to not settle all things, thus he knows them as possible vs actual (contingencies have an element of uncertainty, by definition).

So, God can know in Genesis 3 that He will incarnate as the Lamb of God for the sins of the world in a plan of redemption. This is one motif brought about by His ability, not so-called foreknowledge.

On the other hand, the 2012 Superbowl is not brought to pass by God's ability, so it is not foreknown exhaustively from trillions of years ago. This is the other motif.

Scriptural support is found for both motifs (God changes His mind, etc.). The closed view folks take one motif literally and proof text it, but are forced to make the other motif figurative to rationalize it away to preserve a preconceived theology. Dr. Gregory Boyd develops this in more detail.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
The only "ground" for salvation, is the loving grace and love of God for His Elect, chosen and created in Jesus Christ. DIVINE ELECTION is the sole ground presented in Scripture for the salvation of sinners.


Agreed. Faith is a gift, not a work.


.until He caused me to love Him . . .by His grace and powerful Holy Spirit.

Election is corporate (Israel; Church), not individual.

I did not say faith is a gift. Grammatically, salvation is the gift of God, not faith, in Eph. 2:8-10. Faith is a response of mind and will to God and truth. If faith is a gift, there is no good reason why a loving God would not give it to all men.

Love is not caused or coerced. Relational theism is biblical. Hyper-sovereignty/determinism is a distortion. Grace is also not irresistible or coerced. Grace can be rejected, as can love. Calvinism does limit the love of God and the efficacy of the atonement because God saves some, but damns many others that He could save if He wanted to. God wants to, but we are not willing (as Scripture says).
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Yes, it could have went differently, but contradicting the prophecy sometimes happens...

This is going to be a longer post. Please read it very carefully and think about it for a few days. You should understand that prophecy is there to inspire righteousness, it is not meant to be be 100% accurate. Accuracy was never God's intent for prophecy.

Are you familiar with the book of Daniel? There a lot of prophecies that you can track dead on, including many that involve the Messiah. But some of those didn't come to pass.

Daniel 9
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;


The command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was made by Cyrus in 457 BC.

The "week" represents 7 years.

7 x 7 = 49. 7 x 62 = 434. 434 + 49 = 483. This leads us to conclude that 483 years would pass from the command until the Messiah. As mentioned that took place in 457 BC. To find out when the prophecy is to be fullfilled, we have to "count backwards" (because years in BC go down, not up), so for lack of a better way 457 BC + 483 years is 457 - 483 and that is -26 orrr 26 AD.

My math is ball park, it does not take into account the Jewish calendar, leap years, and other considerations, but you can see how a quick figuring of the years gets us so close to the year Jesus was crucified (32 AD). For a compelling calculation of how this prophecy was fulfilled to the day, click here and look up the 70 weeks question.

I said all that to say this. The second part of the prophecy was not fulfilled. If you read further in Daniel 9, there is another week that something very interesting happens:

Daniel 9
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

So after Messiah is cut off, a prince was supposed to come, and he was going to establish a covenant for 1 week, or 7 years. After that, the end was to come.

I must now back track a little. I started in the middle of the prophecy. It mentioned 7 weeks and 62 weeks. That makes 69 weeks. This final week makes 70 weeks.

Daniel 9
24 “ Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

You can see that the intent was that all this happen in order. No gaps, no leaps. 7 years after Jesus was "cut off" this "prince" was supposed to make war and then the end would come, and not only that, no more transgression or sin, everlasting righteousness, sealing up of prophecy.

What really happened? Well, we still sin, more prophecy was added to the Bible in the book of revelation and we are still here 2000 years later.

Not convienced that this was supposed to happen right after Jesus was crucified? Jesus tells his disciples the end was coming "soon," well 2000+ years is not soon. Jesus meant soon as in sooon. As in their generation.

Mark 9:1
And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.

He wasn't talking about the transfiguration. He was talking about the full power of the kingdom of God present on earth in power.

Matthew 16:28
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

He told his disciples to watch for the abomination of desolation spoken of in the very same chapter of daniel, in the very same prophecy I am telling you about. Remember, the abomination is to take place in that final week, and here Jesus is telling his disciples they would see it happen:

Mark 13
14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Jesus is telling his closest disciples what they are going to experience. They, the 12, will be persecuted, they, the 12, will see the abomination.

Then later in the chapter, Jesus says it ever so clearly:

Mark 13
30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

But it didn't happen. That last week never came to be. Why? Because the way things were going, God had to change the plan.

Mark 13
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

Israel was supposed to preach the gospel to the entire world, and be persecuted by it. But as we can see from the present state of Israel, they never did embrace the gospel, they certainly didn't preach it.

So God went straight to the Gentiles through Paul as another way to get them to turn back to them.

Romans 11:11 I say then, have they[Israel] stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

In going to the Gentiles, and having to wait on Israel to agree to be a part of his kingdom, God has choose to wait. He changed the outcome of a carefully planned out prophecy for their sake, to make them righteous before he returns.

I hope you can see that God doesn't use prophecy as an "See, I told you so," but rather, "This is my plan if you do this or that," instead. The future is not settled, this allows God to be dynamic, but still concise with his plan to save the world through prophecy.

I understand what you are saying, Patman.
However, I don't see where the prophecy of Daniel failed at all.
All of the OT prophecies were absent of the "church age".

Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks.
The people of the prince that shall come destroyed the city and temple in 70ad.There's an obvious gap between the 69th and 70th, else how could the temple be destroyed in Daniel 9:26 and the prince that shall come defile the temple in Daniel 9:27?

There are hundreds of OT prophecies of Israel's fall (early acts), their dispersion (70ad) and their regathering for the last week (future)...see Luke 21.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
AMR,

How about crafting an argument against the Open Theist's position on atonement rather than something that you or some other Calvinist has made up out of whole cloth?

I am not, in any way whatsoever, an Arminian, suggesting otherwise is either ignorance or a lie.

I do not, in neither quality nor quantity, limit the value of the Christ's death on the cross.

I do not, in any way, believe that I saved myself, nor that anyone else is capable of the same saying otherwise is a game of semantics played by those who aren't interested in engaging the Open View on its merits but rather in winning the emotional allegiance of the weak minded who like the theological status quo more than the truth.

Basically your entire post is one enormous waste of time aside from the portions of it that delineate your own position as no one here is an Arminian and this thread is not about Arminianism but rather the Open View, which very simply is not the same thing. I can defeat the Arminian position quicker and easier than you can and do so with more logical coherence in that I'm not undermining my own position in doing so as you would be. If anything Arminianism is nothing more than a subset of and reaction too Calvinism. Open Theism has nothing to do with either of them.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
:yawn:

You were the one who butted in, Nang... If you don't care what I have to say, why should you expect me to read your post? It only seems fair.

Don't worry, tho, maybe someone else will read it.

I feel silly to have to tell you that my sensitivities are just fine... I could tell you were real concerned, but don't worry, there is no need to shoot you :kookoo:

My reply to you was just my impression of your attitude here. You are the one reading emotions into it:)

:wave2:

It's unfortunate really that Nang has decided to come here to be nothing but an obtuse nuisance. She is really quite knowledgeable about Calvinist doctrine and could, if she wanted to, contribute to an interesting debate that would be worthwhile to not only read but participate in. As it is, however, she is just an obnoxious moron who's posts are literally worthless. She is not only an embarrassment to herself and to Calvinism but the whole of Christianity and is a terrific example of everything that is bad about internet discussion forums. The only redeeming quality is that her irrational yammering serves, without response from us, to do more harm to the Calvinist position than any of us could ever do on our own.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

elected4ever

New member
Nang said:
It was stated
(faith precedes regeneration; regeneration does not precede faith
To which you replied, "Not so. A sinner dead in transgressions must first be spiritually resurrected to new life (regenerated) before he can see (believe, comprehend) the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)

Otherwise, one teaches that God resurrects the spiritually dead, according to their work of faith (belief and repentance), prior to even having the Holy Spirit . . .supposedly achieved in the putrid flesh somehow. Impossible!"
This is a fallacy. I use to believe that but it is just not true. God saves no one against their will. It argues against evangelism in any form. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The 'word' spoken of here is the spoken or written word and not Christ. Why in the same passage does it not also say, "And how shall they believe if they are not heard and how shall they hear without a preacher," I do not know why God choose man to be the proclaimer of the word, it would be much more efficient to do as you say and arbitrarily save regardless of a person's status. God was not looking for efficiency but to honor His own word when He gave man the dominion of the earth and thereby the ability to choose his own course freely. Not only must a man choose to believe, he must also choose to deliver the message. It is true that God gives understanding at the deliverance of the message but it is man who must choose to to receive it. It is after a man has choose to receive that God births within the individual a hole spirit and makes the person a new creation. It is this holy spirit that loves and knows God and whose desire it is to have the body do the will of God that was not present before. The mind is constantly being trained by the spirit and the new man is constrained by the love of God to do what is right. Yes, the body can grieve the holy spirit by choosing not to obey but in the end the body will learn to obey the spirit. That which is wrought in god cannot be undone by any power know to God or man and that includes the will of the unregenerate flesh born of man which we inhabit. It is for this reason that Jesus came, that the work of the devil might be destroyed. There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus! Why? Because they walk in the life of the spirit of God and not the death to which man was born.
 

patman

Active member
I understand what you are saying, Patman.
However, I don't see where the prophecy of Daniel failed at all.
All of the OT prophecies were absent of the "church age".

Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks.
The people of the prince that shall come destroyed the city and temple in 70ad.There's an obvious gap between the 69th and 70th, else how could the temple be destroyed in Daniel 9:26 and the prince that shall come defile the temple in Daniel 9:27?

There are hundreds of OT prophecies of Israel's fall (early acts), their dispersion (70ad) and their regathering for the last week (future)...see Luke 21.

Perhaps "fail" is the wrong word. "Changed" is a better word. You must see that it changed from my last post, even Jesus said he was supposed to return with the kingdom in its full glory in that generation and some wouldn't die until they saw that happen.

There was a defiant change, because the original prophecy didn't happen as Daniel and Jesus said it would. Even the fall of the Temple in 70 AD is a good 20 years off from the 7 years that was to follow.

If God never lies, and the prophecy can change, then God wouldn't look into the future and knowingly tell us the prophecy would happen one way it was really going to change. To me, this shows that God doesn't look into the future.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Perhaps "fail" is the wrong word. "Changed" is a better word. You must see that it changed from my last post, even Jesus said he was supposed to return with the kingdom in its full glory in that generation and some wouldn't die until they saw that happen.

There was a defiant change, because the original prophecy didn't happen as Daniel and Jesus said it would. Even the fall of the Temple in 70 AD is a good 20 years off from the 7 years that was to follow.

If God never lies, and the prophecy can change, then God wouldn't look into the future and knowingly tell us the prophecy would happen one way it was really going to change. To me, this shows that God doesn't look into the future.

No offense, Patman, but it seems to be pretty slippery slope to go back into
God's unchanging Word and say God had to change his plans on the fly.

Paul makes it clear that God had planned the dispensation of the grace of God from
before the foundation of the world. How could that have been God's Plan B when
Israel rejected their Messiah?

By the way, I'm not a Calvinist...just uncertain about some of the OV ideas.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
What really gets me about OV (one of many things actually) is the seemingly contradictory belief that God knows some things about the future but not all. And before all of you OV Apologists start jumping all over me with the "strawman" accusations, I want to state that in the years I've been on TOL, I've yet to really a witness an adequate and logical explanation of this.
SOTK did you read godrulz post #89?

I think he answered your objection perfectly. You may not agree with it but do you at least understand what he is saying?
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Paul makes it clear that God had planned the dispensation of the grace of God from
before the foundation of the world. How could that have been God's Plan B when
Israel rejected their Messiah?
You don't think that Plan A was to setup the kingdom here on earth through the nation of Israel??? :confused:

As a dispensationalist I would think this would be a cornerstone in your theology.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Rom 9:10 Not only that, but when Rebekah had conceived children by one man,22 our ancestor Isaac —
Rom 9:11 even before they were born or had done anything good or bad (so that God's purpose in election would stand, not by works but by his calling) —
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger,"
Rom 9:13 just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Mal 1:2 GOD said, "I love you." You replied, "Really? How have you loved us?" "Look at history" (this is GOD's answer). "Look at how differently I've treated you, Jacob, from Esau: I loved Jacob
Mal 1:3 and hated Esau. I reduced pretentious Esau to a molehill, turned his whole country into a ghost town."

When Scripture quotes itself, it's useful to find the source...

Mala 1:1 The oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi. 2 "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "[Was] not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob ; 3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and [appointed] his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness." 4 Though Edom says, "We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins"; thus says the Lord of hosts, "They may build, but I will tear down; and [men] will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the Lord is indignant forever." 5 Your eyes will see this and you will say, "The Lord be magnified beyond the border of Israel!"​

Malachai is ostensibly the LAST prophet before the intertestamental period, after the exile, and a thousand yeard after Jacob died. This is NOT speaking of the individuals Jacob and Esau, but of Israel and Edom, the nations for which these two are the fathers.

So, no, God did not specifically HATE Esau as an individual from birth. Jacob was simply the one chosen to be the one through whom the promise to Abraham (and Adam) would be fulfilled.

Can we finally put this to rest?

Muz
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
You don't think that Plan A was to setup the kingdom here on earth through the nation of Israel??? :confused:

As a dispensationalist I would think this would be a cornerstone in your theology.

Not necessarily, because Christ had to die and be raised first and foremost.

The whole Plan A and Plan B doesn't really make a lot of sense to me...I believe
God only had one plan and it's unfolding perfectly.
 
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