ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Delmar]

Time, or more accurately time and space, is an attribute of the universe. You have agreed that the universe was created. Acording to you, if time is an attribute of God, He shares attributes with the created universe. If time is an attribute of God, he cannot extend beyond the boundaries of the known universe, because by definition, time is an attribute of existing matter in space.

Is God a material? Since the rate of time is related to gravitation and mass (see any physics text), how much does He weigh and what is His density so God can know what time it is? Also, from physics, time flows at different rates at different locations, so, is God younger at some places than He is at others, or does God "fall behind" His actions in time in some places than others?

Therefore, either God is an aspect of the physical universe, pantheism, or we are an aspect of God, panentheism, or God though beyond the created contours of the mere physicality of the creation, can and does work within time and space and is not subject to time or space, which is traditional Christian theism. In which camp do you belong?

How does anything you said answer my question, and why can't you speak English?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Can God make a new creature?

See what Nang said above!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

How does anything you said answer my question, and why can't you speak English?

Huh? You effectively have claimed God exists sequentially, that is, in time. Please review my answer.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

1) God decrees who will be saved, apart from the actions of men
2) God desires for all to be saved
3) Not all are saved.
4) Therefore, God decrees something other that what He desires?

Muz, it would help if you review the dialogs between Evoken and myself in this thread. To your point above, see here.

 

[Delmar]

Huh? You effectively have claimed God exists sequentially, that is, in time. Please review my answer.

and you have no evidence to show that God does not exsist sequentially, except that He is beyond the physical universe. Who are you to say that the physical universe does not resemble God's experience.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

and you have no evidence to show that God does not exsist sequentially, except that He is beyond the physical universe. Who are you to say that the physical universe does not resemble God's experience.

Then what of what I have asserted regarding the known properties of time? Moreover, if God exists temporally, why didn't He create the universe "sooner"?

If I understand you above, you are basically saying God's temporal existence versus our present understanding of the properties of time is a mystery, to be later revealed. I can live with this assumption on your part, but can you?

 

[themuzicman]

Muz, it would help if you review the dialogs between Evoken and myself in this thread. To your point above, see here.

What limits God from getting what He desires?

Muz

 

[Clete]

The Bible tells us that we can determine God's atributes thru the things that are made (Romans 1:20). So, an explicit biblical "argument" for God being outside of time is not absolutely necessary.


Evo

Do you have any argument at all then?

Just somebody please make an actual argument! Calvinists generally hold to Sola Scriptura but at this point I'll take just about anything that resembles a real bona fide argument.

 

[Delmar]

Then what of what I have asserted regarding the known properties of time? Moreover, if God exists temporally, why didn't He create the universe "sooner"?

why didn't He create the universe later? I can only assume He created it when it pleased Him to do so.

If I understand you above, you are basically saying God's temporal existence versus our present understanding of the properties of time is a mystery, to be later revealed.

tem·po·ral
1. Of, relating to, or limited by time: a temporal dimension; temporal and spatial boundaries.
2. Of or relating to the material world; worldly:
3. Lasting only for a time; not eternal; passing:

I certainly would not say that God is "Lasting only for a time" nor would I agree that He is "of the material world. I would however, say that God appears to relate to the material world in real time.

I can live with this assumption on your part, but can you?

You say that you can live with this assumption, but I'm pretty sure you will continue telling people that God is outside of time. :think: I can live with the assumption that there are things about God that I do not understand, but I don't call myself Ask Mr. Religion.

 

[Evoken]

Do you have any argument at all then?

How about you answer my second question to you?

Just somebody please make an actual argument! Calvinists generally hold to Sola Scriptura

As far as I know, the only Calvinists here are AskMrReligion, Nang and Longster.


Evo

 

[Philetus]

Sure.

He made me new when He regenerated me to new life in Christ. Of course, God knew before the foundation of the world, He would make me new in Christ.

And physically speaking, "new" creatures are born every day. A "new" calf dropped yesterday; never seen before . . .by me. However, that new calf was forever in the mind of God; preordained to exist at the right moment of time.









Sure, and He is. The Bible says so. This "new" heaven and earth are already designed and waiting to replace this "old" heaven and earth.

Of course, none of this is "new" to God. The new heavens and new earth are His Kingdom, that will eventually be made manifest to the sons of God. It will be "new" to us, but not new to God.

Nang

Hi Nang, thought we lost you.

I didn't ask if calfs are born or people are 'made' into new creatures. I asked if God can or is able to continue creating. Can God imagine and produce anything 'new' out of nothing; can God create something now that didn't previously exist. The two verses I posted from Isaiah seem to suggest He does. How does Calvinism dismiss that?

In case you missed it here's one of those verses.

Isaiah 48:6 - 7
You have heard these things; look at them all. Will you not admit them? "From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you.
They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.'​

 

[Philetus]

See what Nang said above!

:cow: new cows are born not created

again:

Calvinists have claimed their own limited knowledge of God to justify not answering so many simple straight forward questions so often on this thread that I’m surprised they haven’t listed omniobfuscation as a divine attribute.​

 

[Philetus]

Then what of what I have asserted regarding the known properties of time? Moreover, if God exists temporally, why didn't He create the universe "sooner"?

If I understand you above, you are basically saying God's temporal existence versus our present understanding of the properties of time is a mystery, to be later revealed. I can live with this assumption on your part, but can you?

Maybe he did create it sooner than later. Which assumption are you living with?

 

[Nang]

Hi Nang, thought we lost you.

I didn't ask if calfs are born or people are 'made' into new creatures. I asked if God can or is able to continue creating.

There is no need for God to create more. All is finished.

Can God imagine and produce anything 'new' out of nothing; can God create something now that didn't previously exist.

You confuse ability with necessity. There is no sense in speculating about this, for there is no need for God to create more than this creation. God is complete as Creator.

The two verses I posted from Isaiah seem to suggest He does. How does Calvinism dismiss that?

In case you missed it here's one of those verses.

Isaiah 48:6 - 7
You have heard these things; look at them all. Will you not admit them? "From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you.
They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.'​

Calvinists hardly dismiss the Scripture, or any Scripture. We simply do not make Scripture a matter of speculation, but compare Scripture with Scripture.

The accompanying Scripture for this passage that immediately comes to mind, is the promise of Jesus to His disciples:

"When He, the Spirit of Truth has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come." John 16:13

The "things to come" are future, but not new in the mind of God. The future will reveal new things to us, but all things are completed and known by God.

Besides, in the immediate context of the Isaiah passage, God says these "created now" things had been "hidden," (vs 6), thereby using the Hebrew word "bara" to denote "dispatch" rather than an ex nihilo creation.

 

[Nang]

:cow: new cows are born not created

What I say.

You asked about "new creatures," and that is how I answered.

.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You say that you can live with this assumption, but I'm pretty sure you will continue telling people that God is outside of time. I can live with the assumption that there are things about God that I do not understand, but I don't call myself Ask Mr. Religion.

I clearly said that I can live with your making this assumption, not that I accept your assumption. That is why I pointedly asked you if you can live with the assumption.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

There is no need for God to create more. All is finished.

Yet did He EVER create?

Prior to the act of creation itself....

- Was there a time when He designed?
- Was there a time when He planned?
- Was there a time when He was being creative?

Or, has it always simply been (as AMR asserts)?

 

[Lighthouse]

When God saves us, do we become new creations?

 

[Philetus]

There is no need for God to create more. All is finished.





You confuse ability with necessity. There is no sense in speculating about this, for there is no need for God to create more than this creation. God is complete as Creator.





Calvinists hardly dismiss the Scripture, or any Scripture. We simply do not make Scripture a matter of speculation, but compare Scripture with Scripture.

The accompanying Scripture for this passage that immediately comes to mind, is the promise of Jesus to His disciples:

"When He, the Spirit of Truth has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come." John 16:13

The "things to come" are future, but not new in the mind of God. The future will reveal new things to us, but all things are completed and known by God.

Besides, in the immediate context of the Isaiah passage, God says these "created now" things had been "hidden," (vs 6), using the Hebrew word "bara" as "dispatch" rather than ex nihilo creation.

I never said "NEEDS TO" and didn't confuse need with ability. I didn't ask does God need to create. Your the one who assumes that God can't because you also assume he doesn't need to. I'm making neither assumption. Nor does my question rest on speculation.

Certainly there are things that are hidden that will be revealed but the verse also says, "They are created now, and not long ago;" and you dismiss that by placing everything in the 'already' created category and assume that God no longer creates anything because he doesn't 'need' to. I can't buy that. Scripture suggest otherwise. The question isn't speculation in light of this quote from Isaiah. I asked how you dismiss that. You said by comparing scripture to scripture and then chose one to dismiss the other. The reference clearly says that some formerly created things have been hidden and then declared and that some things were being NOW created. You simply dismiss the things being created NOW by exaggerating words like 'finished' or begging the question of need. Neither is an answer to the question: Can or even does God continue creating?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Maybe he did create it sooner than later. Which assumption are you living with?

Either way, the same question can be asked. You are missing the point.