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  • Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Choosing?

    Choosing between what?
    Only Bill Clinton could squirm his way out of this question and have fools believe him. Nice work forcing him into it, although he will not admit it.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Clete View Post
      Choosing?

      Choosing between what?
      Choosing between Calvinism and Open Theism, of course.
      (Wouldn't it be a hoot if the boy comes home an Open Theists?
      I have an 18 year old son ... I feel for you AMR.)



      Nick M: Only Bill Clinton could squirm his way out of this question and have fools believe him. Nice work forcing him into it, although he will not admit it.

      Caution: Never underestimate the squirming abilities of preconceived theologies.

      "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

      Comment


      • And still, no one has answered my question.
        sigpic

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
          My son is graduating from college in December. Gheez. Read more here.
          Free-will, that is, always choosing to do what your greatest inclinations are, is patently obvious.

          Compatibilism waters down genuine free will.
          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

          Comment


          • Since God created everything out of nothing (which simply means without his power everything would not exist). Then he must be continually conserving all form including us and our free will. So in this sense since God defines our nature and holds our free willnature in place, he is always apaort of our free will acts.

            Creation is not something that occured at some point and that was it. His creation is continual ad his plans unfold through his creation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
              Compatibilism waters down genuine free will.
              Define "genuine free will".

              Comment


              • Yeah, I don't believe we have 'genuine' (absolute) freewill. Romans makes our clay-like predicament really clear (Romans 9:21). We don't like to admit we are not the rulers of our own castles. Autonomy is a fallacy. Our very breath is sustained by a perfect Creator (Colossians 1:17; Colossians 2:19; Ephesians 4:16). The goal of our faith is not autonomy, it is slavery. We are owned, either by sin or by our Lord. Slaves do not have 'freewill' choices. They have the choice to obey or rebel. This is and always was our only choice. The rest is contingent upon only this. If I wear the red shirt today, I do so either because I am serving one master or the other. Variety is meaningless. Does it really matter if I have the tuna or ham? The only decision with any eternal bearing is why. If I live today it is either for Christ or it is not. Variety is gift from God, not a mark of freewill choices. I am NOT free. I'm in bondage (Romans 1:1, Titus 1:1).
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Lonster View Post
                  Yeah, I don't believe we have 'genuine' (absolute) freewill. Romans makes our clay-like predicament really clear (Romans 9:21). We don't like to admit we are not the rulers of our own castles. Autonomy is a fallacy. Our very breath is sustained by a perfect Creator (Colossians 1:17; Colossians 2:19; Ephesians 4:16). The goal of our faith is not autonomy, it is slavery. We are owned, either by sin or by our Lord. Slaves do not have 'freewill' choices. They have the choice to obey or rebel. This is and always was our only choice. The rest is contingent upon only this. If I wear the red shirt today, I do so either because I am serving one master or the other. Variety is meaningless. Does it really matter if I have the tuna or ham? The only decision with any eternal bearing is why. If I live today it is either for Christ or it is not. Variety is gift from God, not a mark of freewill choices. I am NOT free. I'm in bondage (Romans 1:1, Titus 1:1).





                  "And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." Romans 6:18
                  "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                  " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                  Gordon H. Clark

                  "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                  Charles Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Lonster View Post
                    Yeah, I don't believe we have 'genuine' (absolute) freewill. Romans makes our clay-like predicament really clear (Romans 9:21). We don't like to admit we are not the rulers of our own castles. Autonomy is a fallacy. Our very breath is sustained by a perfect Creator (Colossians 1:17; Colossians 2:19; Ephesians 4:16). The goal of our faith is not autonomy, it is slavery. We are owned, either by sin or by our Lord. Slaves do not have 'freewill' choices. They have the choice to obey or rebel. This is and always was our only choice. The rest is contingent upon only this. ... If I live today it is either for Christ or it is not. Variety is gift from God, not a mark of freewill choices. I am NOT free. I'm in bondage (Romans 1:1, Titus 1:1).
                    We agree in principle. However, I would not call the act of serving God "slavery" but an act of true freedom. Slavery is in disobeying him, by obeying him, we live up to our capacity as humans. God's plan was for 99.99999 percent of his creation to run mechanistically and the other 0.00001 percent to freely love him. We act mechanistically and as slaves when we refuse to do so.


                    Evo

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Lonster View Post
                      Yeah, I don't believe we have 'genuine' (absolute) freewill. Romans makes our clay-like predicament really clear (Romans 9:21). We don't like to admit we are not the rulers of our own castles. Autonomy is a fallacy. Our very breath is sustained by a perfect Creator (Colossians 1:17; Colossians 2:19; Ephesians 4:16). The goal of our faith is not autonomy, it is slavery. We are owned, either by sin or by our Lord. Slaves do not have 'freewill' choices. They have the choice to obey or rebel. This is and always was our only choice. The rest is contingent upon only this. If I wear the red shirt today, I do so either because I am serving one master or the other. Variety is meaningless. Does it really matter if I have the tuna or ham? The only decision with any eternal bearing is why. If I live today it is either for Christ or it is not. Variety is gift from God, not a mark of freewill choices. I am NOT free. I'm in bondage (Romans 1:1, Titus 1:1).
                      The regenerated have free will, that is, to ability to become the kind of creature God wants us to be.

                      Scripture nowhere says that we are free in the sense of being outside of Gods sovereign control or of being able to make decisions that are not caused by anything. Unfortunately, this is the sense in which many people seem to assume we must be free. Nor does Scripture say anywhere that we are free in the sense of being able to do right on our own apart from Gods power.

                      We deny we have an abstract freedom, but a revised conception of freedom. For freedom, after all, is not arbitrariness. There is in all rational action a why for acting — a reason which decides action. The truly free person is not the uncertain, incalculable person, but the person who is reliable. In short, freedom has its laws — spiritual laws — and the omniscient God knows what these are. And I thank Him for being completely in control to assure the direction I should move my life towards.
                      Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                      Do you confess?
                      Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                      AMR's Randomata Blog
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                      I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                      Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
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                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Evoken View Post
                        We agree in principle. However, I would not call the act of serving God "slavery" but an act of true freedom.

                        When the Bible speaks of "slavery" it speaks not of forceful obeisience, but of willful servantry. As exemplied in the ultimate Servant of God; the Lord Jesus Christ, whom coming as a perfectly willing and obedient "Servant," earned this praise from His Father:


                        "Behold My Servant, whom I have chosen; My Beloved, in whom My soul is well
                        pleased: I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He shall show judgment to the Gentiles."

                        Matthew 12:18



                        Servanthood is honorable and in accordance with human design. All men were created by God to serve their Creator.





                        Slavery is in disobeying him,
                        I disagree. Disobedience is sin, not servanthood, of which we now speak and attempt to define.


                        by obeying him, we live up to our capacity as humans.
                        The depraved human race has no such capacity.

                        Only Jesus Christ, the sinless Servant of God, who obeyed God unto death without sin, possesses such moral capacity.

                        That is why orthodox Christianity teaches that the moral righteousness of Jesus Christ, the perfect Servant, must be imputed to the (sinful) elect, chosen by the Father in the Son, in order that they might stand legally righteous in His sight.



                        God's plan was for 99.99999 percent of his creation to run mechanistically and the other 0.00001 percent to freely love him. We act mechanistically and as slaves when we refuse to do so.


                        Evo
                        There is no Scripture to support this view, sorry to say, friend. . . 99.99999% mechanistical behavior, would be the result of a form of fatalism.


                        This is backwards to what is taught in the Word of God.

                        God regenerates His elect, by empowering them with His Holy Spirit, making them new creatures able to love His Person and His Law, and thus, making them morally WILLING to serve His righteousness.

                        It is the justification (forgiveness of their sins) accomplished by Christ on the cross, that makes this regeneration and (new) servanthood even spiritually possible.


                        Nang
                        "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                        " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                        Gordon H. Clark

                        "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                        Charles Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • We are on a semantical discussion here, because I agree. Paul gives both scenarios of the same placement in Christ. A freedom to do God's will. A slavery to His purposes and happily so. The term 'freedom' or free will then becomes the needed focal point for understanding. I am never 'autonomously' free.

                          This kind of freedom (autonomous) is the freedom to choose a Christ-less existence. It is the discussion of libertarian freewill. If we are going to call that totally free, we are talking about being free of Him.

                          It totally then, demands that we see freedom as being 'separation' from one of two masters.

                          This is my understanding of freedom as well as my understanding of 'choice.'

                          God has enabled us to choose Him through Christ. Again, this is my view of freedom/bond-servant. They are antithesis between the two masters.

                          In Him


                          Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                          The regenerated have free will, that is, to ability to become the kind of creature God wants us to be.

                          Scripture nowhere says that we are free in the sense of being outside of Gods sovereign control or of being able to make decisions that are not caused by anything. Unfortunately, this is the sense in which many people seem to assume we must be free. Nor does Scripture say anywhere that we are free in the sense of being able to do right on our own apart from Gods power.

                          We deny we have an abstract freedom, but a revised conception of freedom. For freedom, after all, is not arbitrariness. There is in all rational action a why for acting — a reason which decides action. The truly free person is not the uncertain, incalculable person, but the person who is reliable. In short, freedom has its laws — spiritual laws — and the omniscient God knows what these are. And I thank Him for being completely in control to assure the direction I should move my life towards.
                          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                          ? Yep

                          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Evoken View Post
                            Define "genuine free will".
                            It is redundant, like libertarian free will. Free will involves contingencies, being able to chose between alternatives. The choice may or may not happen (might, might not). This has an element of uncertainty. There is no causation or coercion other than the free agent's will.

                            Compatibilism waters it down by saying we can only do what we are inclined to do or something like that.

                            There are moral and mundane choices. It should be self-evident that I can freely chose to eat or not eat generally. A believer or an atheist can or cannot commit adultery. Volitional issues lead to personal responsibility. My Calvinistic friends miss this simple point. I agree with them that we cannot save ourselves, but we can receive or reject Christ (they would disagree based on TULIP).
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Evoken View Post
                              We agree in principle. However, I would not call the act of serving God "slavery" but an act of true freedom. Slavery is in disobeying him, by obeying him, we live up to our capacity as humans. God's plan was for 99.99999 percent of his creation to run mechanistically and the other 0.00001 percent to freely love him. We act mechanistically and as slaves when we refuse to do so.


                              Evo
                              I'm not so sure of you percentages, but your point is well taken. Even if it is only 0.00001% freedom ... that's freedom!

                              Exercising our God given freedom to sin does not immediately remove us from the environment that by the grace of God sustains our lives. Sinning against God, others, and/or even the environment does in a very real sense place us in slavery to our own volitions. We create disorder that returns to bite us. We fall victims to our own self-centeredness. We make poor rulers of the universe, even our little corners, and without true acknowledgment of God, we self-destruct. True freedom lies in recognizing that our freedom is to be exercised within the limitations of loving relationships, just as the natural order of things teaches.

                              In that sense, because God freely chose to create significant others and endow them with life/freedom of their own, it can be said (though the language is awkward) that God is no longer ‘free’ to exist as if they do not exist and still remain faithful to Himself. The Good News is that although we have failed to acknowledge God and continue to suppress the truth about God, God does not abandon us; God continues to acknowledge our existence even while giving us over to vain pursuits and without coercion provides everything we need to repent and return to right relationships. To make God absolutely immutable, timeless and distant through excessive transcendence is to deny God this loving, reciprocal relationship that God in Christ has gone to such lengths to make available to us. It may be the greatest sin the religious mind has ever concocted.

                              "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                              Comment


                              • Ga 5:1 - It is for freedom that Christ has set us (almost) free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

                                "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

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