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  • Originally posted by Clete View Post
    You are more than welcome to post on the thread but something more than one line statements of your personal opinion would be far less of a waste of time. No one here knows you and even if they did, why is your opinion any more authoritative than Boyde's or Sander's or mine for that matter? This is supposed to be a discussion about theology, not personal opinions. If you have an opinion, GREAT! Voice it and then tell us why you believe it. That way, we have something worth responding too.
    Clete, take the time to follow the complete thread. In the early morning hours Ktoyou posted a question about the topics being discussed. I posted a simple summary of open theism and asked her for an opinion of what did or did not resonate with her. She graciously replied. Now you jump in with arrogant guns blazing completely ignorant of the context motivating her response.

    Of course, given your demonstrated biblical eisegeses, context is not something I consider to be anything like a strength of yours. Moreover this thread is full of your personal opinions. In fact, all the threads that you post to are littered with them. Once more you demonstrate that you are a cockalorum.
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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    • Originally posted by Clete View Post
      Thank you Ktoyou for the perfectly complete waste of time post!
      I'll just quote Clete's own words as a response to Clete's whining above:
      Would you please stop one lining us all to death!
      Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



      Do you confess?
      Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
      AMR's Randomata Blog
      Learn Reformed Doctrine
      I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
      Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
      Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
      The best TOL Social Group: here.
      If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
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      • Originally posted by Clete View Post
        The WCF says very clearly the following...

        CHAP. III. - Of God's Eternal Decree.

        1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

        and this...

        CHAP V. - Of Providence.

        1. God the great Creator of all things doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

        Explain the contradiction AMR.
        I will explain the two sections since you apparently don't understand them. There is no contradiction to explain, however.

        III.1
        This section and article is best understood when persons have a proper understanding of some key terms.

        Foreknowledge means that God knows always and at all times everything which is to come to pass.

        Foreordination means that the divine ordination is related in some way or other to all that happens. Foreordination implies to arrange beforehand, to predispose all events and their conditions in such a manner that all shall come to pass according to God's eternal plan. Foreknowledge and foreordination are related: God foreknows events because God has prearranged the happening of these events. To admit foreknowledge carries foreordination with it.

        Predestination means to bound or limit, and thus to fix definitely the occurrence of any event. For Calvinists, predestination is used to express the plan of God as it relates to the acts and destiny of moral agents. Importantly, the term is always applies to the elect, and never to the non-elect. Ordination is the term used for the non-elect. In other words, the elect are predestinated to life and the non-elect are ordained to death.

        Election is a term applied to the heirs of salvation, meaning selected, designated, or chosen out. Election relates to God’s gracious plan or purpose to save certain persons through Christ, and by the appointed means.

        Reprobation does not appear in the confessional standards, but it has been a common term used in much theological discussions. As noted below, the confessional standards speak of the non-elect being passed by and left in their sin. The often used and best word to express this fact is the word preterition, or passing-by. The non-elect are passed by and left in condemnation because of their sins.

        From your underlined emphasis above, the key summary is that God has ordained, that is, arranged beforehand, to predispose all events and their conditions in such a manner that all shall come to pass according to God's eternal plan.

        Before moving to the second section and article you have quoted, to answer your earlier question about foreknowledge and the decrees, please review the second article in this section, which reads:

        "2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

        God's foreknowledge does not enter into consideration for His decrees. God foreknows what should be because He decrees that they should be. God did not decree anything because He foresaw it as future. Moreover, the execution of God's decrees is not conditional. This is the explicit doctrine which distinguishes Calvinists from Arminians, who hold that God's decrees are not absolute but conditional.

        V.1
        To better understand this section, another term must be defined:

        Providence is God’s most holy, wise, and powerful preserving and governing all his creatures and all their actions to His own glory.

        In this section and article we find the discussion moving forward from God's decrees to their execution, from God's eternal purpose to the realization of this purpose in time, from God's comprehensive plan to its actual coming to pass. In summary, God executes His decrees, realizes His purpose, or carries out His plan in the works of creation and providence. This is all done according to God’s exhaustive foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of God's own will. God's providence is about God, the creator all things, preserving His works.

        One section of the WCF describes God's ordaining whatever comes to pass, the other describes God's providence sustaining and preserving God's works.
        Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



        Do you confess?
        Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
        AMR's Randomata Blog
        Learn Reformed Doctrine
        I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
        Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
        Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
        The best TOL Social Group: here.
        If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
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        Comment


        • Another thing I've wondered is the use of Calvanism. Even if foreknowledge and predestination are as AMR defines them above, what use are they to us? Nobody can say who is saved and who is not and it leaves no reason to act with any great urgency to the plight of those who are lost.
          Where is the evidence for a global flood?
          E≈mc2
          "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

          "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
          -Bob B.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by stipe View Post
            Another thing I've wondered is the use of Calvanism. Even if foreknowledge and predestination are as AMR defines them above, what use are they to us? Nobody can say who is saved and who is not and it leaves no reason to act with any great urgency to the plight of those who are lost.
            their answer is, that they only share the gospel because God commanded them to. Not that it makes a difference.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
              I will explain the two sections since you apparently don't understand them. There is no contradiction to explain, however.

              III.1
              This section and article is best understood when persons have a proper understanding of some key terms.

              Foreknowledge means that God knows always and at all times everything which is to come to pass.

              Foreordination means that the divine ordination is related in some way or other to all that happens. Foreordination implies to arrange beforehand, to predispose all events and their conditions in such a manner that all shall come to pass according to God's eternal plan. Foreknowledge and foreordination are related: God foreknows events because God has prearranged the happening of these events. To admit foreknowledge carries foreordination with it.

              Predestination means to bound or limit, and thus to fix definitely the occurrence of any event. For Calvinists, predestination is used to express the plan of God as it relates to the acts and destiny of moral agents. Importantly, the term is always applies to the elect, and never to the non-elect. Ordination is the term used for the non-elect. In other words, the elect are predestinated to life and the non-elect are ordained to death.

              Election is a term applied to the heirs of salvation, meaning selected, designated, or chosen out. Election relates to God’s gracious plan or purpose to save certain persons through Christ, and by the appointed means.

              Reprobation does not appear in the confessional standards, but it has been a common term used in much theological discussions. As noted below, the confessional standards speak of the non-elect being passed by and left in their sin. The often used and best word to express this fact is the word preterition, or passing-by. The non-elect are passed by and left in condemnation because of their sins.

              From your underlined emphasis above, the key summary is that God has ordained, that is, arranged beforehand, to predispose all events and their conditions in such a manner that all shall come to pass according to God's eternal plan.

              Before moving to the second section and article you have quoted, to answer your earlier question about foreknowledge and the decrees, please review the second article in this section, which reads:

              "2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

              God's foreknowledge does not enter into consideration for His decrees. God foreknows what should be because He decrees that they should be. God did not decree anything because He foresaw it as future. Moreover, the execution of God's decrees is not conditional. This is the explicit doctrine which distinguishes Calvinists from Arminians, who hold that God's decrees are not absolute but conditional.

              V.1
              To better understand this section, another term must be defined:

              Providence is God’s most holy, wise, and powerful preserving and governing all his creatures and all their actions to His own glory.

              In this section and article we find the discussion moving forward from God's decrees to their execution, from God's eternal purpose to the realization of this purpose in time, from God's comprehensive plan to its actual coming to pass. In summary, God executes His decrees, realizes His purpose, or carries out His plan in the works of creation and providence. This is all done according to God’s exhaustive foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of God's own will. God's providence is about God, the creator all things, preserving His works.

              One section of the WCF describes God's ordaining whatever comes to pass, the other describes God's providence sustaining and preserving God's works.
              None of this made any sense to me. None of the definitions you gave were any different that what I already understood them to mean and yet nothing was explained about how we have self-determination (note the root of the word determination) and yet God determines everything that happens "from the greatest even to the least".

              Further, you say that "God's foreknowledge does not enter into consideration for His decrees" but chapter V says that "[God] govern(s) all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge,..."

              The same language is used throughout the WCF and it seems obvious what is being said. Effective the WCF, along with every Calvinist I've ever come across, affirms both that we have self-determination and that God determines everything. They make no attempt whatsoever to reconcile the two and actually insist that the two are not to be reconciled because they are a mystery beyond our reckoning and that it is pious duty to simply accept these truths and trust God in spite of what looks to our human reason to be a contradiction.

              Do you disagree with that position? And could you perhaps restate your previous post in just a couple of direct sentences. Don't bother trying to explain in so much detail, just state plainly what you are attempting to get at. You say there is no contradiction clear enough but your reason why just makes no sense to me at all.

              Resting in Him,
              Clete
              sigpic
              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Delmar View Post
                their answer is, that they only share the gospel because God commanded them to. Not that it makes a difference.
                Not much of an answer. Do they also only not kill everyone because God said not to?
                Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                E≈mc2
                "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                -Bob B.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by stipe View Post
                  Another thing I've wondered is the use of Calvanism. Even if foreknowledge and predestination are as AMR defines them above, what use are they to us? Nobody can say who is saved and who is not and it leaves no reason to act with any great urgency to the plight of those who are lost.
                  Delmar: their answer is, that they only share the gospel because God commanded them to. Not that it makes a difference.
                  Actually not even because God commanded them to because they really have no choice. God decreed it.

                  Open Theists have pointed out that even though they hold to the confusion of what is posted above they must live AS IF their doctrine is not true and act AS IF evangelism mattered. That's why they must constantly retreat behind the fog-screen that God is just to high and removed and complicated for our finite minds to grasp. Calvinism is designed to keep God at a distance. But ...
                  10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

                  There is no giving and receiving between God and the world in Calvinism. There is no delegation of power (right to become anything) nor any real delegation of dominion. It's all pre-arranged, pre-determined, pre-known and pre-destined. There is no real or actual reason to witness or evangelize because there is no real actual result, only that which God determined before hand. There is really no reason for the world to even exist except for God's amusement and His own actualized glory which exists intact whether the world exists or not. There is no dynamic relationship at all between God and His creation.

                  Dominion over creation in the Old Testament and power to become in the New cannot find a place in Calvinism.

                  "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Clete View Post

                    The same language is used throughout the WCF and it seems obvious what is being said. Effective the WCF, along with every Calvinist I've ever come across, affirms both that we have self-determination and that God determines everything. They make no attempt whatsoever to reconcile the two and actually insist that the two are not to be reconciled because they are a mystery beyond our reckoning and that it is pious duty to simply accept these truths and trust God in spite of what looks to our human reason to be a contradiction.

                    Do you disagree with that position? And could you perhaps restate your previous post in just a couple of direct sentences. Don't bother trying to explain in so much detail, just state plainly what you are attempting to get at. You say there is no contradiction clear enough but your reason why just makes no sense to me at all.

                    Resting in Him,
                    Clete
                    That puts and keeps God way out there and keeps the Calvinists in charge of their own Twilight Zone. It's a false humility resulting from being so wise and then taking pride in their ignorance. You nailed it Clete! Just don't expect an answer. They have none.

                    "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Delmar View Post
                      their answer is, that they only share the gospel because God commanded them to. Not that it makes a difference.
                      If you knew what you are talking about you would know that the answer is the Great Commission commands it for we do not know who the elect are; the elect answer God's call from the hearing of the Word. You are wrong and clearly jaded.
                      Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                      Do you confess?
                      Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                      AMR's Randomata Blog
                      Learn Reformed Doctrine
                      I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                      Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                      Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                      The best TOL Social Group: here.
                      If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
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                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Clete View Post
                        You say there is no contradiction clear enough but your reason why just makes no sense to me at all.
                        God's decrees are made without the use of the foreknowledge that God possesses. God's providence is unrelated to the decrees. God's providence is all about sustaining that which God has decreed.
                        Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                        Do you confess?
                        Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                        AMR's Randomata Blog
                        Learn Reformed Doctrine
                        I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                        Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                        Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                        The best TOL Social Group: here.
                        If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
                        Why?


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                        • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                          Then I would assume you do not see the verse as an example of an anthropopathism? Correct?


                          You actually used the correct word!
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                            Would I believe in wiffenpoofal if it were true? Nonsense questions get nonsense answers. The fact that open theism is not orthodox means it cannot be hypothesized into orthodoxy. You have landed on the horns of the law of non-contradiction.
                            That is just ridiculously retarded! Orthodox does not equal truth! And I didn't ask about belief, either! I asked about trust. Would you trust God if He did not have exhaustive foreknowledge, let alone exhaustively predestining everything.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                              If you knew what you are talking about you would know that the answer is the Great Commission commands it for we do not know who the elect are; the elect answer God's call from the hearing of the Word. You are wrong and clearly jaded.
                              So what is so important about adhering to a calvinist point of view when it operates out of ignorance. I prefer to witness to people out of a sense that I am active and appreciated for my efforts.
                              Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                              E≈mc2
                              "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                              "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                              -Bob B.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by elected4ever View Post
                                Because I take God's self revelation over your supposed reasoning. We all use reasoning to make heads or tell of things but when the word says something I have to adjust my reasoning to conform with what God has said. You do the same. I don't think ether of us believe the same thing we believed 10 years ago.

                                Human reasoning is not the last word. There are things that we cannot reason with human reasoning and we accept by faith and further down the road an answer is given and an understanding is received that was not plan in the beginning. We all travel that road. God has said I was wrong many times and my understanding had to be adjusted. It is not a strange thing to me. God's way is better. Trust me.
                                I'd rather trust God.

                                "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

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