ARCHIVE: Free From Sin - 1 John

[CRASH]

I am an Acts 2 dispensationalist, I suppose. I am also an Open Theist with a family. I have not finished "The Plot", but it is on the desk next to me. I appreciate your posts when you do make them.

As student of the word, The Plot should be something of great interest to you. I would like to know your thoughts upon completion.

"I am also an Open Theist with a family." This is encouraging. For some reason I thought you were a Calvinist. Sorry.

 

[elected4ever]

As student of the word, The Plot should be something of great interest to you. I would like to know your thoughts upon completion.

"I am also an Open Theist with a family." This is encouraging. For some reason I thought you were a Calvinist. Sorry.

:rotfl: :noway: :rotfl:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight-
In the interest of brevity, I shall answer as much as I can in a short post. I agree that it is pointless to try to explain to those who are not in Christ that Christians do not commit sin.

But not only that... it isn't biblical!

The Bible clearly destroys this view as I have demonstrated on this thread. Paul does not agree with Sozo, you and e4e, plain and simple.

They would not understand me, and would most likely stop listening before I could explain. However, I believe that a discussion between Christians can be fruitful.

Fruitful maybe. I hope so. I hope you will read the passages I have posted. After reading those verses I think you should change you stance on this issue.

I have found three Biblical definitions of the word sin. And I have also found numerous Scriptures that show how Christians do not fall into any of those categories.

God and the apostle Paul disagree.

Is it still wrong to do these things? Yes. Do Christians still do some of them? Yes. Are they identified as sins in the eyes of God when someone who is not identified as a sinner does them? No.

That's where you are dead wrong according to the Bible.

Christians sin. The beauty is, through Christ's work on the cross God covers EVERY sin (past present and future) that is the gospel.

Do you realize that your argument is no more than a fight to call "sin" something else? There is NO payoff to your argument. There is no plus side. Even if you convinced somebody that Christians cannot sin the only thing you would have accomplished is you no longer call rape a "sin" for a Christian, instead you call it a "stupid act" (as e4e acknowledged). What is the point? You would still need to explain that God covers "stupid acts" for those saved by the blood of Christ.

Bottom line is...
The assertion that Christians cannot sin is biblically inaccurate. Confusing. Pointless. And has no apparent up-side.

Dump it and move on. :up:

 

[elected4ever]

But not only that... it isn't biblical!

The Bible clearly destroys this view as I have demonstrated on this thread. Paul does not agree with Sozo, you and e4e, plain and simple.

Fruitful maybe. I hope so. I hope you will read the passages I have posted. After reading those verses I think you should change you stance on this issue.

God and the apostle Paul disagree.

That's where you are dead wrong according to the Bible.

Christians sin. The beauty is, through Christ's work on the cross God covers EVERY sin (past present and future) that is the gospel.

Do you realize that your argument is no more than a fight to call "sin" something else? There is NO payoff to your argument. There is no plus side. Even if you convinced somebody that Christians cannot sin the only thing you would have accomplished is you no longer call rape a "sin" for a Christian, instead you call it a "stupid act" (as e4e acknowledged). What is the point? You would still need to explain that God covers "stupid acts" for those saved by the blood of Christ.

Bottom line is...
The assertion that Christians cannot sin is biblically inaccurate. Confusing. Pointless. And has no apparent up-side.

Dump it and move on. :up:

Give me the three "definitions" that you have gleaned from the scripture.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Give me the three "definitions" that you have gleaned from the scripture.

Uh... maybe you meant to ask Lighthouse that question? After all... it was he who said that not me.

 

[elected4ever]

Uh... maybe you meant to ask Lighthouse that question? After all... it was he who said that not me.

OK my bad. I though it was you. But by the way, the bible does not define sin. It describes sin.

Do you realize that your argument is no more than a fight to call "sin" something else? There is NO payoff to your argument. There is no plus side. Even if you convinced somebody that Christians cannot sin the only thing you would have accomplished is you no longer call rape a "sin" for a Christian, instead you call it a "stupid act" (as e4e acknowledged). What is the point? You would still need to explain that God covers "stupid acts" for those saved by the blood of Christ.

You haven't listened to a word I have said have you? My standard is higher than the one commonly accepted by the traditional church So is SOZO's. If you believe that Christians sin then you do not believe Paul, Peter or John. What you are believing is a tradition that is unsupported in scripture.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If you believe that Christians sin then you do not believe Paul, Peter or John. What you are believing is a tradition that is unsupported in scripture.

Then why is that only one of us has provided scripture to support their view and that "one" isn't you?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

My standard is higher than the one commonly accepted by the traditional church So is SOZO's.

Is you and Sozo's definition of sin higher than the apostle Paul's definition of "sin"? :think:

 

[godrulz]

As student of the word, The Plot should be something of great interest to you. I would like to know your thoughts upon completion.

"I am also an Open Theist with a family." This is encouraging. For some reason I thought you were a Calvinist. Sorry.

Calvinist? :shocked:

 

[godrulz]

OK my bad. I though it was you. But by the way, the bible does not define sin. It describes sin. You haven't listened to a word I have said have you? My standard is higher than the one commonly accepted by the traditional church So is SOZO's. If you believe that Christians sin then you do not believe Paul, Peter or John. What you are believing is a tradition that is unsupported in scripture.

What you are espousing is the variety of heresies under 'sinless perfectionism', erradication, etc. Christians do not need to sin, they should not sin, but it is theoretically possible to sin. Calling adultery anything but sin is disingenuous. Knight sees the light. Get with the program.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

perhaps you idiots will believe this but i doubt it 1 John 3:8 *He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 *Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Go ahead and keep on sinning you idiots. You are a sinner and sin or you are righteous and not a sinner. You guys sure are stupid.

Be careful what you wish for you might just get it.

1st John is written to those under the dispensation of the circumcision. They had to continue to keep the law in order to maintain their salvation. Therefore when they sinned they needed to seek forgiveness unlike those of us that in the Body of Christ.

If you read the verse you quoted in context you will see that very clearly.

Start at the beginning of 1st John so you can get the context for chapter 3.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Wow!! Is that you e4e??? Do you confess your sins when you sin? And if you don't confess are you no longer saved? Of course not!!! Because you are not a Jew saved under the covenant of circumcision.

1John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

This is starting to get ugly!!!

1John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Do you keep the law e4e? Do you?

1John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.

LAW... LAW...LAW.

Are we sure they were talking to believers??? Yes... yes we are sure...

1 John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Therefore...

1John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

In other words... if a circumcision believer committed sin they needed to confess their sin and seek forgiveness.

And how can we be sure of that?

1John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

e4e I doubt you keep the law and rightfully so! You shouldn't keep the law as the law is not for the Body. But in that same vain you shouldn't read commands made to the circumcision and attempt to apply them to the uncircumcision.

In SUMMARY...
Those under the law could not sin and remain in God's grace. Therefore if they were one of God's children they were not sinners. If they sinned they were no longer one of God's children they had to seek forgiveness. None of this applies to us in the Body and therefore your proof text is not a very good one.

 

[elected4ever]

Is you and Sozo's definition of sin higher than the apostle Paul's definition of "sin"? :think:

Paul does not define sin. Paul describes what a sin is by giving an example.

I could give you a robin and tell you that is a bird. You could not define a bird with the example of a robin. You can just agree that a robin is a bird.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Paul does not define sin. Paul describes what a sin is by giving an example.

I could give you a robin and tell you that is a bird. You could not define a bird with the example of a robin. You can just agree that a robin is a bird.

Paul uses the word "sin" in a way contrary to what you, Sozo and Lighthouse are saying. Why?

Why is Paul wrong for using the word "sin" the way he does?

 

[elected4ever]

Paul uses the word "sin" in a way contrary to what you, Sozo and Lighthouse are saying. Why?

Why is Paul wrong for using the word "sin" the way he does?

Paul is not wrong in the way he uses the word sin. The translators uniformly translated the word, sin, even when sin was not indicated. Besides it was to the church's advantage to do that. Most Church's us the fear factor to the hilt. If there is any thing a Christian fears, it is sin. It is not my motive to not do any more but to do. I do because I am and not because I am afraid of doing. Sin brings condemnation and Paul said I am not condemned.

 

[godrulz]

Paul uses the word "sin" in a way contrary to what you, Sozo and Lighthouse are saying. Why?

Why is Paul wrong for using the word "sin" the way he does?

If they researched Vine's or Kittel's Expository dictionaries of NT words, they would realize sin is not a simplistic concept. Harmartiology is a whole branch of theology about sin. Sin is fleshed out in a broader way in various contexts than a few trite statements about it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Paul is not wrong in the way he uses the word sin. The translators uniformly translated the word, sin, even when sin was not indicated. Besides it was to the church's advantage to do that. Most Church's us the fear factor to the hilt. If there is any thing a Christian fears, it is sin.

Wow... if that doesn't prove my point nothing will. :up:

It is not my motive to not do any more but to do. I do because I am and not because I am afraid of doing. Sin brings condemnation and Paul said I am not condemned.

You are not condemned because your sins are covered! Not because you can't sin, but yet because those sins are already covered!

I think it's important that as Christians we be as clear as possible for the sake of the lost.

Paul was clear. The Bible is clear.

You, Sozo and Lighthouse are only confusing the clear message of the gospel.

I ask as a brother that you stop confusing unbelievers in this way.

 

[godrulz]

Summary:

Knight: I John is about Jewish believers. 1:9 applies to Jewish believers, but not to the Church after Paul (Mid-Acts view).

Sozo/LH: I John 1:9 is not about believers. It is about unbelievers.

Godrulz: I John 1:9 is applicable to all NT believers after the resurrection of Christ. John wrote to believers and did not teach faith + works.

John wrote Revelation decades after Paul died. He wrote to a Gentile audience at Ephesus where he pastored. He wrote for believers and would be preaching the same gospel as Paul (why would he be stuck on a so-called circumcision gospel after Paul died and Jews had rejected the Messiah...date of I John may be early or late?).

King David and believers through the centuries confess their sins. It is simply saying the same thing about them as God does (contrary to His will and holiness). It is the first step of returning to walking in the light/Spirit in that area of disobedience. Confession or lack thereof does not affect salvation. Faith vs unbelief is what determines destiny. I John does not teach that one loses salvation with one sin (not even true for early Jewish believers), but that we have an Advocate IF we sin. The same blood that cleanses us at conversion will cleanse us subsequent to conversion.

 

[godrulz]

Wow... if that doesn't prove my point nothing will. :up:

You are not condemned because your sins are covered! Not because you can't sin, but yet because those sins are already covered!

I think it's important that as Christians we be as clear as possible for the sake of the lost.

Paul was clear. The Bible is clear.

You, Sozo and Lighthouse are only confusing the clear message of the gospel.

I ask as a brother that you stop confusing unbelievers in this way.

This still sounds confusing and practically not different than sozo's view. If the sins are automatically covered, then there is righteousness even while persisting in unrighteous adultery. Each act and motive stands on its own basis and is judged that way. The standing before God is a different issue. The believer who continues to commit adultery is identical to the one who feels conviction and ceases the behavior. Both are forgiven and cleansed regardless of their behavior? I do not see this in Scripture. I am not saying that one loses their salvation, but they cannot say they are walking in the Spirit if they are in the flesh.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Happy Day! :bannana: The re-inforcements have arrived!



Thank you Turbo and Knight. This whole Christians can't sin thing is stupid and has always got on my nerves but I never wanted to jump into the fire Sozo has created for Godrulz. Finally, I couldn't help myself and I spent hours trying to point this out to Sozo last Saturday

Right Here - go halfway down to post 24 - it goes on for 4 or 5 pages . You've got to read it!

Just like this thread it has lots of unanswered questions.


I like to keep things simple and clear. My main points are:

1. Christians sin.:duh:
2. That sin is paid for by Christ.:thumb:
3. Godrulz may be wrong about virtually everything, but all indications are that he is a Christian so it is wrong to treat him like a child molester for believing Christians can sin.:cheers:

Sozo, I would like to see your OP if you are inclined to re-post it. If not, that's okay too. If you are rethinking your position that is awesome. I hope you are considering conceding the debate. It is sad, but Christians sin all the time, even you. Often the consequences are horrific. Praise God that because of Christ it is not held against us!

Yeah... I read some of that and that is one of the main reasons I decided to attempt to straighten Sozo out on this thread.

Tragically Sozo has a massive self control problem and is incapable of discussing biblical issues with people.

The really sad part is apparently Sozo has convinced some of the brighter TOL'ers (Lighthouse and Jefferson) of this silly theology. Tragic! :shocked:

 

[elected4ever]

Wow... if that doesn't prove my point nothing will. :up:

You are not condemned because your sins are covered! Not because you can't sin, but yet because those sins are already covered!

I think it's important that as Christians we be as clear as possible for the sake of the lost.

Paul was clear. The Bible is clear.

You, Sozo and Lighthouse are only confusing the clear message of the gospel.

I ask as a brother that you stop confusing unbelievers in this way.

Romans 8:1 *¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 *For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 *For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 *That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 *For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 *For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 *Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 *So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 *But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 *¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 *But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 *Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 *For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 *For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 *For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 *The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Romans 8:17 *¶And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 *For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 *For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 *For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 *Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 *For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 *And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 *For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 *But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 *¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 *And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 *And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Telling me to keep quite about the matchless grace of Jesus is like telling me not to breath. Go to hell. I will do rightly an suffer the consequences. Just because you are a dim wit doesn't mean I have not told you the truth. Your own like of understanding is your own problem.