ARCHIVE - geoff's colossal contradiction (subtitled) HIS CONVERSION TO OPEN THEISM!

[1Way]

For everyone's information, "geoff" has been an avid defender of closed verses open theism. Open theism says that God knows the future as being open to (some) uncertainties and contingencies. The classic closed view says that God knows all of the future (exhaustively), for God, the future is fixed and set, it is singular in truth and outcome, no variation or uncertainty is allowed. Yet, today, geoff seemingly reversed his view by demonstration! Examine his post to see for your self.

dated 9-21 9:05pm, in the "God does not repent" thread, in "The Attributes of God" forum.


(WARNING: The follow depiction is shocking, and irrational, therefore viewer discretion is advised)


Geoff quoted me (1Way) saying

God can not

know how to make the impossible happen,

because if He did, then it would not be impossible, it would be a possible task.

and then responded by saying

The Scripture says what Dwayne?

Lets see:
With man, it is impossible, with God, nothing is impossible.

However, it is true, God can not do the illogical. Exhaustive foreknowledge is not illiogical, EVEN humans have partial foreknowledge.

Then he quoted me saying

God can not know what does not exist to be known.

I realize that he had just suggested how man has PARTIAL foreknowledge, and I grant that geoff believes that God can also plan for the future, but then in defense of God's supposed capacity to know things that do not exist (which is his position and he is about to defend!), he shockingly said

I think I will write a sentence in 30 secs that says; 'see even I can know something that doesnt exist'





'see even I can know something that doesnt exist'

Funny, I just knew something that didnt exist, and then it did exist. If I can do it, surely God can do it immeasurably.

That is the exact demonstration of the open view's version of God's foreknowledge of the future! God knows His future plans before they happen. It demonstrates present accumulated knowledge, which includes plans for the future.

geoff is either opposed and inconsistent to his own theology, or perhaps finally the truth has begun to sink in. In any case, his presented a fine demonstration for the open view.

Amazing!

1Way

 

[Maelstrom]

Huh?

Huh?

Are you now willing to acknowledge that God has exhaustive knowledge of the future?

 

[PENIEL]

So What !

So What !

What is this - a Witch Hunt ?????

Let the guy have his own beliefs and stop trying to appeal to us for support.

If the guy wants to believe whatever he wants to believe , that is his business.

You are not Perfect Yourself ya know !!!!!!!!!

I believe in Open Theism.

And since , I am Always Right , All the Time. And Good Lookin Too!

So, Why doesn't Everyone think exactly as I do all the Time ???

Or maybe you want everyone to be Like Freak or Evangelion.

Or maybe you would like all of us to be Roman Catholic or Mormons.

We are NOT all the same. God created room for Variety .

If He did not then this would be a very Boring Board.

So , Give the Guy a Break will ya.

 

[His_saving_Grac]

ANOTHER Attack 1lostway?

ANOTHER Attack 1lostway?

Please stop wasting our precious time with your petty immature personal attack on new threads.

I have an idea, why not create a web page with nothing but the names of those here you have condemend to Hell for disagreeing with you. (Never mind, they don't sell that much webspace)

 

[geoff]

Now now,

Be nice to Dwayne, he is losing the plot, and doesnt really know what He is talking about.. we cant really hold it against him, I dont.

I should like to take this opportunity to point out, once again, that I am not a Calvinist, nor am I am arminian, nor an OVer, or a dispie. All I defend is what I have learnt from Scripture, and from historical, semantic, literary, and philosophical study and reflection on Scripture.

I am not an expert.
I have a degree.
I am not always right.
I am not always wrong.

 

[1Way]

geoff - As to

Be nice to Dwayne, he is losing the plot, and doesnt really know what He is talking about.. we cant really hold it against him, I dont.

I am ready (and have been waiting) for correction and understanding. Please help us understand what is going on with your seeming contradiction.

I don't get it. You have consistently stated (for years) that God knows the future exhaustively, and yet, you just got done demonstrating God's foreknowledge (the way us open theists do) as being according to His present accumulated knowledge including His plans for the future.

God's knowledge of the future is either

(1) Exhaustive
(2) Closed to contingencies or uncertainty

or the negation of the same

(-1) Is not exhaustive
(-2) Is open to contingencies and uncertainties

Please explain your position on God's knowledge of the future in light of your (openness) demonstration of your view.

 

[geoff]

I demonstrated that *I* have foreknowledge, and that even my foreknowledge isnt based entirely on 'guesswork' but what I know to be certain.

I also demonstrated that I can know that which does not exist.

I then indicated, as you have admitted, that God is infinitely more capable of knowing. I also indicated that seeing as I can know that which doesnt exist, God can also know what which doesnt exist. Making it not 'illogical' as you claimed, but logical, because it can be proven to be so.

Perhaps this thread should be renamed 'dwayne colossal foolhardy and rash statements about that which He knows little'.

 

[1Way]

Geoff - Ss to

I also demonstrated that I can know that which does not exist.

All you identified was your plans for future action. The fact that you expressed those plans, prove that they existed in you mind, and the fact that you carried out your plans, proves that you really did plan on doing what you thought to do.

All that involved present knowledge, none of that involved knowing of "something" that does not exist. All you knew was your plan, you did not know the reality of it being carried out until you actually did it. Only then did you realize you plans.

If you have something, it is not nothing. It exists as something.

So to say that you can think of "something" that does not exist, you are contradicting reality. The reality is, your plan for the future existed in your mind, that was the something that you think did not exist, yet the reality is, it existed in your mind.

(Boy, I really could have ribbed you on that one.)

1Way

 

[geoff]

If you have something, it is not nothing. It exists as something.

So you are now denying OV philosophy.

If God has the ability to exhaustively foreknow, then 'something' does exist, as you so rightly pointed out.

God AT THE VERY LEAST knows his plans, but He knows more than just what he plans, doesnt He dwayne?

Yes, He does, he knows who will reject him, he knows when a sparrow will fall, he knows the number of hairs on your head, he knew you BEFORE you were born (before you were conceived is the correct Hebrew), and the list goes on.

So, God DOES know more than just what He has planned, which shows that you are wrong. God knows things BEFORE they exist. In fact, in Romas we are told that God calls into existence THAT WHICH DOES NOT EXIST.

For your peace of mind:
Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”)—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Btw, 'call' in this verse is likened to 'summon' - God 'summons' into existence (being) that which does not exist (not being).

He who ribs last, ribs longest...

 

[1Way]

geoff - God knows things, and so do I. Your evasiveness and insincere posts,

here's why I believe God knows the future

it's his plans

only to see you revert away from that, back into the confines of God knows all things exhaustively. I trusted that you were being honest and not hijacking your thoughts for a reversal like you just did. You are insincere, you are vain. But make no mistake, I will know you clear as day when God reveals the secrets hidden in man's heart. Apparently only then will I come to understand why you are so subversive.

 

[geoff]

Dwayne,

why are you ignoring the verse that SHOWS IRREFUTIBLY, that God can know that which doest exist?

He has to know it before it 'exists' because HE CALLS IT IN INTO EXISTENCE.

Come on Dwayne, why are you ignoring it?

Why are you ignoring the other bible verses that show other aspects of things that God knows which ARE NOT things he has planned or decreed?

Why Dwayne? Tell us...

I am being honest... I have given you ONE good scripture, and i will post the rest here for you so you dont even have to go and find them...

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Isa 49:1 Listen to me, O coastlands,
pay attention, you peoples from far away!
The Lord called me before I was born,
while I was in my mother’s womb he named me.
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Rom 9:11 Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, 12 not by works but by his call) she was told, “The elder shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written,
“I have loved Jacob,
but I have hated Esau.”
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Gal 1: 15 But when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Matt 10:29 Two sparrows cost only a penny, but not even one of them can die without your Father’s knowing it. 30 God even knows how many hairs are on your head. 31 So don’t be afraid. You are worth much more than many sparrows.
(NCV)
The New Century Version, (Dallas, Texas: Word Publishing) 1987, 1988, 1991.

Here we have a bunch of verses showing that God knows MORE than just what He has decreed/planned.

Add to this:

Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”)—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

And we find that it is you who is being deceitful. Willfully ignoring these verses. Resorting to insults.

Come on Dwayne, I thought you could do better than that...

....don’t be afraid. You are worth much more than many sparrows...

 

[1Way]

irrationality = unending nonsense = geoff

irrationality = unending nonsense = geoff

geoff - As to

He has to know it before it 'exists' because HE CALLS IT IN INTO EXISTENCE.

No, He only has to know of it conceptually before it exists. Knowing a concept or idea, is not the existence of the non-idea. Or do you not know the difference between a thing, and the concept of that thing?

As to

Romans 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith that [it might be] according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed----God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be."

I didn't mean to ignore it, I thought I was being clear. It's simply a reference to God's foreknowledge. God (calls things) will make happen that which what does not already exist, as though they already do exist. Great verse! God views yet future things as though they already exist, but they don't exist yet. So they only exist as a future plan.

1Way

 

[geoff]

Or do you not know the difference between a thing, and the concept of that thing?

YOU, yes YOU said, that God COULD NOT know that which does not exist.

I showed He can, no use trying to run around in circles to cover yourself.

It's simply a reference to God's foreknowledge

Yes it is, it say God calls (summons) into existence, that which doesnt exist.

God views yet future things as though they already exist, but they don't exist yet. So they only exist as a future plan.

If God Views future things as though they exist, then surely God is seeing them as though they exist, not as a 'future plan'. I suggest you revise that statement, because it contradicts itself.

 

[1Way]

geoff - "as though they did;" is (contextually) a clear and positive affirmation that they do not exist. And I think it is clearly the only logical and consistent rendering.

Recall the law of non-contradiction. "A" can not be both

"A"

and

"non A"

at the same time and in the same relationship.

You are saying that a thing can exist and not exist at the same time and in the same relationship. God knows of "things" "that do not exist". There is no such "knowable thing", as "a thing that does not exist". If "something" does not exist, it is no-thing (or not a thing), not some-thing. You are making no sense.

But, the Bible teaches that God makes things happen according to His future plans. You are trying to force your theology into this verse, but an objective review shows that "as though they did (exist)", means that they didn't exist until God brought them about into being.

This verse is stating my view very clearly. When God carries out His future plans, it happens with such clarity and certainty, that it's as though they had already existed, but they didn't exist (until He brought them about,). Again the context is always a good helper in times of doubting the meaning.

Notice

(as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations")

The Bible's story of how God made him the father of many nations is one that does not explicitly state, nor logically necessitate exhaustive foreknowledge. You are just trying to shove your theology into God's word.

 

[1Way]

Talk about baffling. I am having a serious discussion with a person trying to defend the idea that God can know something that does not even exist to be known.

geoff says that God can do the impossible but not the illogical.

Wacky.

 

[geoff]

geoff says that God can do the impossible but not the illogical.

You think this is wacky?

I think it is most strange that you think that God can not do the impossible... What is impossible for man is possible for God, Jesus said...

 

[1Way]

geoff - As to

I think it is most strange that you think that God can not do the impossible... What is impossible for man is possible for God, Jesus said...

That is a great verse, proving that God can do the possible, even if man thinks it is impossible.

By definition, and logical necessity, God can not do the impossible. Man and his estimations is not the crux by which God must leap. The truth in realty dictates (God's word teaches) that God exists according to His own eternal nature and being, it can be no other way.

 

[PENIEL]

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

1 Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the

disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of

this world?

Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD;

trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

===============

Who cares whether God knows everything before it happens.

Do you know everything before it happens. No.

Do you care , No.

Neither does anybody else.

God is in Control and Will Resurrect everyone Who has ever lived

so that they can live another hundred years the Right Way.

So, stop bothering us with your Trivial Little questions and

discuss something that we all know is important like, how many

angels can dance on the head of a Pin.

Get my Point.

 

[jobeth]

Dwayne:
I agree with you that the reason God knows the future is because He knows what He will do. And since God knows there is nothing that can stop Him from doing whatever He wants, then God knows that what He wants to happen is what will happen.

Because I agree with you concerning the means God knows the future, does that make me an Open Theist? Of course not. The future is closed not because the future already exists. Rather it is "closed" to contingencies outside of whatever God wants, because God is All-powerful.

I affirm both that the future does not already exist and that God exhaustively knows all that will happen before it happens for the same reason you have already given. God knows what He plans to do. I don't think you are able to change the Almighty's plan for what He wants to do. Do you?

Geoff:
Whatever do you mean in saying that God knows more than what He plans to do? Is there anything that God knows about that He did not create? Do you deny that God is the Sole Creator?

 

[1Way]

Jobeth - As to

Because I agree with you concerning the means God knows the future, does that make me an Open Theist? Of course not. The future is closed not because the future already exists. Rather it is "closed" to contingencies outside of whatever God wants, because God is All-powerful.

I affirm both that the future does not already exist and that God exhaustively knows all that will happen before it happens for the same reason you have already given. God knows what He plans to do. I don't think you are able to change the Almighty's plan for what He wants to do. Do you?

That is very different. And I think contradictory. Let me examine and explain.

I affirm both (for the sake of this examination only)

that the future does not already exist

and that God exhaustively knows all that will happen before it happens (for the same reason you have already given).

Although I disagree with the amount of control you place upon God, I understand what you are saying and will evaluate it for what it is worth. So, in God's mind, although the future does not exist, He is in complete exhaustive control and therefore just as He perfectly knows and understands His future plans, so also does He perfectly know and understand everything that will happen in the future.

- Point being that you are saying that God's foreknowledge (which you pose as causative by His will and plans and might to carry them out) is:

absolutely certain and singular in it's totality.

If that is the case, then you have the same problem I mentioned with God's foreknowledge that is based upon another mechanism, that knowledge is absolutely certain and singular in it's totality. Therefore there is no pretense of uncertainties or contingencies, there is no free will, nor choices nor options, it all must happen according to the one set known truth according to God's foreknowledge. There is no other way.

So, are you consistent with this and say that there is only seeming changes, only seeming free will, only seeming contingencies? Please explain.

1Way