The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
Actaully, the Bible says that Jesus is the source of salvation for all who "obey" Him (Heb. 5:9). If you dont obey Jesus, you won't be saved. How can you obey Jesus without works, Freak? How?

When will you ever learn?

Hebrews 5:9 is not saying that we need to obey him in order to be saved. That would be works and works does not get one saved and born again of God's Spirit.

Ephesians 2:4-9:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

(5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

(6) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

(7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

All other scripture must be based on the above doctrinal verses of Ephesian, which is a doctrinal epistle to the born-again believers.

Therefore, Hebrews 5:9 is not saying that one has eternal salvation BECAUSE he obeys Christ. Hebrews 5:8 states "although he WAS A SON, he still had to learn obedience through what he suffered. v9, "and having been made perfect [by overcoming his trials, including death], he BECAME the source of eternal savation for all who NOW, PRESENTLY obey him. In other words, because we are saved, we are not exempt from disciplining ourselves to be obedient to him, which is to do the Word of God given to us as born-again believers.

Also, regarding being a liar: You said

1 John 2:4 He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in them.

It's really quite simple. If we claim to know Jesus Christ, yet do not keep His commandments, we are liars, and the truth is not in us. Liars will not be in heaven. So, now that we know that we must keep His commandments, how can we do that without doing works? Can you answer this?

I John 2:4:
He [the man] that saith, I know [by personal acquaintance] him [God], and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him [the man].

If a person is not born again, the truth is not in him spiritually. But if a born-again believer says he knows God intimately and does not observe the commandment to walk in the light, the truth of The Word is not in that man's mind. The truth remains in the believer's spiritual being, but that person has not put on the truth in his mind.

Verse 5:
But whoso keepeth his [God's] word, in him [the man] verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him [God by Jesus Christ].

To keep God's Word is to live according to His will. We do the keeping of His Word, and in the keeping of it, the love of God is perfected in us.

There is nothing in these verses which states that a Christian who says he/she is in fellowship and walks in darkness, being a liar, are not still saved.

Again, we must always remember that salvation came from what Christ accomplished for us. It came by the pure grace of God. It is a free gift to all who believe in Christ. We ARE SAVED BY GRACE...NEVER BY WORKS.

If "liars" as you say, will not go to heaven, then I guess none of us will make it there...which would also include you.

 

[Evangelion]

Hope Of Glory -

If you believe the Pentecostal doctrine applies to you then why do you not do the things that He says to do????

You are over-generalising. Let's take an example:

• 
  Acts 2:14.
  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.

Obviously I am not one of the "men of Judaea", nor am I one of those who "dwell at Jerusalem." Peter's words, therefore, must be taken in context. There are some things which are intended only for his present audience, and some things which are intended for any man (or woman) of any era. Repentance and baptism are universal principles, whcih apply to anyone who hears the Word of God.

So I guess my question to you is this - why have you not repented and been baptised?

I said:
Scripture can be quoted but "faith" in it is required to recieve its blessings.

Your response:
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. We cannot have faith without understanding. Philip explained Isaiah 53, and the eunuch was baptised on the basis of his understanding.

My reply:
"From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh"

Hearing in the above verse is believing but all that hear do not believe.

What's your point? Are you trying to tell me that the eunuch was baptised without faith, and without understanding?

Not mentioned in Isaiah 53:

Faith

How to obtain remission of sins

Shed blood of Christ

What the eunuch said does not "prove" that he understood that faith in the shed blood of Christ was for remission of sins.

Ridiculous! The book of Acts tells us that Philip explained this prophecy to the eunuch. I want you to tell me what you think Philip told him by way of explaining this prophecy to the eunuch. The fact that faith, how to obtain remission of sins, and (specifically, i.e. mentioned by name) the shed blood of Christ are not mentioned in Isaiah 53, is totally irrelevant! Philip would have mentioned all of these when he explained the prophecy to the eunuch. We are specifically told that he "preached unto him Jesus." I want you to tell me what you think Philip told him by way of explaining this prophecy to the eunuch and preached unto him Jesus. You are trying to avoid my argument instead of addressing it.

... possessed with devils..Matt. 8:28 (KJV)
cried out, saying, ... Jesus, thou Son of God...Matt. 8:29 (KJV)

Are these possessed of devils saved? Do they have faith?
I think not!

Straw man. The Holy Spirit told Philip to go to the eunuch. He went to the eunuch for the express purpose of converting him. Are you trying to tell me that Philip failed? Are you trying to tell me that God would send Philip to the eunuch for the purpose of saving him, and then permit him to leave despite not having failed in his commission? Your argument is utterly nonsensical. You are begging the question instead of answering it.

*snip*

My reply:
Not mentioned at Pentecost or to the eunuch:

Christ died for

*snip*

I'm sick of this. You're wasting my time with petty semantics, and you won't address my arguments. What a joke.

I said:
How do we recieve remission of sins?

Your response:
By a faithful confession of our sins, and submission to baptism.

My reply:
Wrong!

Without faith in the shed blood of Christ there is no remission of sins.

Straw man and a false equivocation. Are you telling me that we don't have to repent in order to be saved? Is that what you're telling me? You are picking and choosing your Scriptures without any reference to context. This is deceitful and illogical.

And why didn't you address Romans 6?

• 
  Romans 6:3-4.
  Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
  We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

This is a clear reference to water baptism. "Spirit baptism" (or whatever you people call it these days) is not the "baptism" referred to here. How do we know? Because Paul says that the baptism of which he speaks, is symbolic of death and resurrection. Only water baptism can fulfill this typology.

You said:
The shed blood of Christ for remission of sins is taken for granted in verse 38.

My reply:
The shed blood of Christ should never be "taked for granted".

Don't be obtuse. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

*snip*

Do you read your Bible at all, or do you simply sit on your couch and watch TBN every Sunday?

 

[Evangelion]

Hope Of Glory -

*snip*

We are saved the moment be believe He died for our sins.

Scripture, please! Specifically, "Saved the moment we believe he died for our sins."

Those at Pentecost did not have this faith and thus did not receive eternal life.

Scripture, please! And by the way, that's an utterly repellent doctrine you have there. You are basically telling me that Pentecost was a complete and utter waste of time, despite the fact that the apostles spoke under inspiration of the Holy Spirit! So your argument requires that God wasted His time, and failed to preach a saving gospel to the men and women at Pentecost!

The kingdom promised was put on hold and it was offered to the Gentiles because they did not believe.

*snip*

Scripture, please!

The apostles did not believe in his shed blood and they had no understanding of it.

*snip*

Scripture, please!

*snip*

The apostles argued among themselves as our Savior was telling them of the power of his shed blood and speaks of Peter being converted.

*snip*

Please prove from Scripture that they did not understand the significance of the bread and wine. Please prove from Scripture that they did not understand the significance of Christ's saving sacrifice.

*snip*

Jesus was telling them the way to eternal life is faith in his blood but it offends them.

But later they understood. Christ's use of the bread and wine during the last supper was deliberate, and this time, the disciples understood its significance.

*snip*

I said:
If you truly had faith in His blood you would have the knowledge to understand the power of God to forgive sins without water baptism.

You asked:
Show me where this is written in Scripture.

My reply:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)

This does not tell me that we can be forgiven without water baptism. It only tells me that Paul did not receive a specific commission to perform baptism. His emphasis was on preaching the gospel - others, who followed in his wake, performed the baptism of repentance and salvation. As he himself says, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase." Paul was a

Thus:

• 
  I Corinthians 1:14-16.
  I thank God that I baptized none of you, save Crispus and Gaius;
  lest any man should say that ye were baptized into my name.
  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

In your typical fashion, you chose to ignore the context. Paul's argument is not that baptism is unnecessary - far from it, since he baptised people himself! - but that he does not wish his baptisms to be a cause of division among the brethren.

*snip*

My reply:
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. Luke 12:33 (KJV)

... go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. Mark 10:21 (KJV)

What is this intended to prove?

Have you obeyed as did the church at Pentecost?????? Answer the question!!!

I have obeyed everything which applies to modern-day believers. Now, please address my "obedience/commandments of God" proof texts - you know, the ones which you insist on ignoring.

Is the answer no?

The answer is a qualified "yes."

Are you saved?

Not yet.Salvation is not an instant event. Salvation is something which comes as the result of a lifelong process.

Your response:
Yes, this obedience I am referring to is a righteous work. And a righteous work is not counted as a "work" in the sense of something which earns you something else. People were even permitted to perform righteous works on the Sabbath day. What does that tell you?

My reply:
Double talk!

Ad hominem. Why didn't you address my my point about working on the Sabbath?

If water baptisim is a righteous work why is it that you believe it is required for salvation?

Because (a) it is commanded, (b) it is how we enter a covenant relationship with Christ, and (c) without a covenant relationship with Christ, we cannot be saved. Now, please address my point about working on the Sabbath.

Can can't say something is required and then say it doesn't count toward that same something it is required for.
Explain!

I already explained this. It does count toward our salvation, but it does not, of itself alone, guarantee salvation. Nothing that we do, guarantees our salvation. Salvation is something which is granted to those who "love God and keep His commandments" (which you, a proud and unrepentant sinner, refuse to do!), and are found worthy of eternal life at the judgement seat of Christ.

*snip*

You said:
Salvation is not an instant event. Salvation is something which comes as the result of a lifelong process.

My reply:
You're dead wrong!

Wow, that was a compelling argument! Care to back it up with Scripture?

Care to address the many points I have made which you have consistently failed to address?

 

[Evangelion]

Would any of the "I-don't-think-baptism-is-necessary-for-salvation" crowd care to explain to me how "baptism of the Spirit" can fulfill the typology of death, burial and resurrection on which our covenant relationship with Christ is predicated?

Feel free to cite Scripture...

...for a change.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Would any of the "I-don't-think-baptism-is-necessary-for-salvation" crowd care to explain to me how "baptism of the Spirit" can fulfill the typology of death, burial and resurrection on which our covenant relationship with Christ is predicated?

Hi Evangelion,

Well, I belong to the "I-know-baptism-is-necessary-for-salvation" crowd.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

The primary idea associated with baptism is the washing or cleansing from sin that the spirit accomplishes when one calls upon the name of the Lord. When one confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, believing God raised him from the dead he receives remission of sins, a total inward cleansing of sin. While cleansing or remission of sin is the primary idea associated with baptism, there is also another aspect of baptism in the spirit to consider. It does not place emphasis so much upon the cleansing aspect of spirit baptism, but upon our identification with Christ.

Romans 6:1-4:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

(2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

To be "baptized into Jesus Christ" is to be "baptized into his death" in verse 3 and "buried with him by baptism into death" in verse 4. All of these refer to the one baptism in holy spirit received at the time of the new birth.

Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sin by being the perfect sacrifice or sin offering for the sins of mankind. The scriptures teach us, spiritually speaking, when Christ died, we died with him. When he was buried, we were buried with him. This legal association between the guilty sinner and the perfect savior’s sacrifice for the sinner is often called "identification with Christ."

The ultimate point of this identification by "baptism into his death" is not the death itself, but the newness of life that results for the believer because God then raised Christ from the dead.

Romans 6:4:
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Not only are we dead and buried with Christ, but we are also raised from the dead with him. The newness of life that we are to walk in is no longer a walk of sin that leads to death. It is a walk of righteousness and true holiness and ultimately, at the return of Christ for his Church, a full recognition of all that God has made us, as born-again Christians, to be and have in Christ Jesus.

Please read Romans 6:5-23.

In baptism, the believer is dead, buried and raised unto newness of life in Christ. However, it does not stop there.

Ephesians 2:4-7:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

(5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

(6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

(7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Dead, buried, raised and already (spiritual or legal sense) seated in heavenly places in Christ. This is the identification with Christ the believer enjoys through the one baptism in the spirit - a baptism into his death and resurrection.

Colossians 2:9-13:
For in him [Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

(10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

(11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

(13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Again, "buried with him in baptism" in verse 12 places emphasis our identification with Christ in whom we are complete. The "old man" nature of sin in the unsaved sinner is put to death in baptism and the sinner is born again, receiving life in the "new man" nature of the spirit. This enables us to walk in newness of life as we reckon the old man dead and ourselves "alive unto God through Jesus Christ." We now have the nature of Christ within us by way of the spirit, the nature which is of God.

Colossians 1:27,28:
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

(28) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Galatians 3:27:
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:24:
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

II Peter 1:1-4:
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

(2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

(3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

(4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The exceeding great and precious promise of the baptism with holy spirit and all it entails enables us to be "partakers of the divine nature." Without the spirit, we were still dead in sin. Having it, we are born again to a new life in God through Christ and our identification with him.

The baptism in the spirit, besides having the effect of cleansing us from sin, also gives us new life and spiritual power. This one baptism, with all that it enables, coupled with a knowledge of God’s written Word, gives us all that we will ever need to live a life of being well-pleasing to God as we await the return of God's Son, Jesus Christ, God's Son.

 

[Evangelion]

I don't think you quite understand the significance of my question, Agape. The point I am making is that only water baptism can truly represent the death, burial and resurrection of a believer.

Observe:

• You descend into the water (death.)
  
• You remain under the water for a moment (burial.)
  
• You rise from the water (resurrection.)

None of this occurs in so-called "Spirit baptism", and that is why the only baptism by which we can be "buried with Christ", is water baptism. So for those who advocate "Spirit baptism" over water baptism - how can "Spirit baptism" fulfil the necessary symbolism of death, burial and resurrection?

Perhaps it's time to ask a few questions. I'll present the "water baptism" side, and I invite a "Spirit baptism" person to fill in the blanks on his/her side:

• Are there three stages to "Spirit baptism"? (There are with water baptism.)
  
• Is there a stage in which death is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
  
• Is there a stage in which burial is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
  
• Is there a stage in which resurrection is represented? (There is with water baptism.)

Identification with Christ - his death, burial and resurrection - is made possible by the two simple rituals that he instituted. One of these was the partaking of the memorial emblems - bread and wine. The other was water baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for the remission of sins.

 

[Evangelion]

I am also waiting for somebody to address the parable of the talents, the parable of the workers in the vineyard, the parable of the sheep and goats, and these two (very simple) passages of Scripture:

• Matthew 21:28-32.
  But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
  Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
  For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
  
• I John 5:2-4.
  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Hope Of Glory looked like he wanted to address these points, but at the last minute, he decided that he to do something else instead.

So they're still waiting... as am I.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Apollos,

Thank you for your kindwords.

But I am amazed that you are under the impressionthat the "New Man" is the individual believer.

Perhapsyou did not read those words in the context in which they were written.Paul speaks of the Lord Who has "broken down the middle wall of partition between us"--between the Gentile and the Jew.

This "middle wall of partition" refers to the wall that separated the Court of the Gentiles from the Court of the Jews.

Next,Paul says that by the Lord´s death He has abolished that which separated the Jew from the Gentile,and that is the Law which commanded the Jew to keep himself separate from the Gentiles (2Cor.6:16,17;Acts10:28).

And because now that which had separated the Jew from the Gentile has been abolished,the Lord can now MAKE IN HIMSELF OF TWO (the Jew and the Gentile) ONE NEW MAN.

And that which is composed of TWO is the Body of Christ,the NEW MAN.

And from Scripture we know that it by the Holy Spirit that the believer is BAPTIZED into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit were we all BAPTIZED into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).

And by the way,the sinner,upon belief,is baptized IN THE NAME OF the Lord Jesus,and NOT INTO Jesus Christ.

Therefore,we can see the meaning of Romans 6:3-5 is in regard to being BAPTIZED into the Body of Christ by the SPIRIT,and not by water:

"Know ye not that as many of us were BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST were baptized into His death."

"For by one SPIRIT were we all BAPTIZED INTO...the BODY OF CHRIST"(1Cor.12:13,27).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Evangelion]

Same questions apply to you, Jerry...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Evangelion,

You give no Scriptual evidence concerning your belief that water baptism means death,burial and resurrection.If you are correct,how do you explain the fact that Peter went to Corneliusand his household to speak the WORDS by which they would be saved(Acts11:14),and upon believing the Spirit fell on them all(Acts10:44)?

Here we see that they were saved and yet not a drop of water had even touched them.

As for Matthew 21:28-32,the word "repent" simply means to change one´s mind.The first son changed his mind in regard to his father´s command to go to work.

The second son acted as if he would obey his father,but did not.

In reference to those with whom He was speaking,the Lord is saying that while some seemingly accepted the ministry of John the Baptist,their actions (Lk.7:29-30) proved that they were like the second son.They cause of their fall is stated as they "believed him not".

On the other hand,the harlots and tax collectors did BELIEVE him.

So we can see that entrance into the kingdom of God will be determined by who BELIEVES the Word of God.

In regard to 1Jn.5:2-4,this is saying that if we love God we will keep His commandments.Does this teach that our "eternal life" is dependent on keeping His commandments? No!If we love Him we want to serve Him.And for this reason we are to keep ourselves spotless:

"I beseech you therefore,brethren,by the mercies of God,that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice,holy,acceptable unto God,which is YOUR REASONABLE SERVICE"(Ro.12:1).

Now that I have answered your verses,perhaps you will return the favor by addressing mine.If you read on from the verses you presented at 1Jn.5:2-4,you will come to the following words:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

Notice the words--HATH given to us eternal life.They alreary have been given eternal life.And let us look at the Lord´s own words in regard to those who had received this eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life,and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH"(Jn.10:28).

How can these believers ever lose their eternal life,especially since the Lord Himself says that they will never perish?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[c.moore]

quote: c.moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You ask me about dead works is this faith,"but" you must first study what faith is to get the revelation, why wer beleive faith alone is the key to salvation, and sence we have the key, we use the key to work to go through the door, but faith we do have , and the key of salvation we do already have, so if you have this what will stop us for wanting to use this key,even if it involves work to open the door.
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Quote brother Kevin
But don't you see, c.moore, that unless you actually use that key and go through the door, that that key won't do you any good until you do that? Same with faith. It doesn't do any good to have faith in Christ if you don't do what He says.


Quote c.moore
This is what I mean about having faith.
You just mention about what I`ve been saying that we have faith before any works.
You said it in your statement:to have faith in Christ

I can still have the permission , and have the key, and I can be stupid and don`t use what I have, but like you said I do have the faith in Christ because I have the substance which is faith, or I do have the key, which is the thing that open the door, but just because I didn`t open the door doesn`t mean I don`t have the key, or because I didn`t do any other works, I don`t have faith, get my point of faith only??

The way I see that you believe is that the person giving you the key , and the free permission to eat in his store, is like you say first I must do what ever I can first before I get the permission, and key, like clean the man house ,tiolets, clean the store from the outside,and everything that you can do for the man , and then maybe you might get the permission, and the key to stop from starving to death, buit by the time you do all this works first you will die while your working from starvation, so you concept doesn`t make sence, and this is for sure not the way of the Lord , and the bible.
That why in the bible is said Grace is a gift, and salvation is a choice, of accepting not any kind of works that you can show off , and show what you done on your own.






quote: c.moore
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the same is with being saved and having salvation.
the part really gave this person life again was the permission, which is only words, that give this person hope.
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Quote by Kevin
But that's just not true. You are saying that one who hears the words, yet does not act on them, is already saved. That's not what the Bible teaches. I've shown you and others alike that 1John 2:4 states that people who say they know the Lord (hearing the words), yet do not keep His commandments, are liars, and the truth is not in them. Liars will not be in heaven, c.moore.

You are saying that people who hear the word and do nothing are saved by their faith only, which not only goes against that 1John passage I just referenced, but also Matt. 7:21. Its states that not everybody who says "Lord, Lord" will be in heaven, but only those who "DO" the will of the Father. To DO the will of the Father, you HAVE to do something-- Works.


Quote c.moore
This is what I explain in my above statement, and the scripture you mention is really meaning the same as what I said,except we are saved by faith alone.
! John 2:4 is saying like I said , If you have the key , and permission to go and eat all you can free from the gift of the owner , and you don`t go and eat, you are stupid, or A fool, and you are not maybe really hungry, or you are A liar, and the boss will not be pleased you didn`t go eat, so even though you mention boss,boss gave me permission, and A key, you still will never enter again into the bos store, because the boss don`t let foolish, and stupid, and liars that act like they are starving to be a friend of the boss, and he will act also like he never knew this stupid,lying person, that didn`t use the things that was offered to them freely.


Quote by Kevin
You agree with me that faith by itself is dead, yet you say that faith only saves. Well, I ask again, knowing that faith only is a dead faith, how can a dead faith save anybody, c.moore? Can you answer that?



Quote c.moore
I did in the above examples, and as soon as somebody recieves the permission, and the key, they are saved,or have the key to life, and of course I would not be stupid and not use what I got,but without what I got I am lost and not saved, so if I don`t go to the store and eat I will be dead, but my salvation is based on the permision to have the key,and the boss is happy to give me the free key, and would be happier to see me use the key,but I already been given life through the boss already.


quote: c.moore
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When we get baptized , the spiritual baptism is the real baptism for God, not the fleshly carnal outwards water baptism.
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Quote kevin
Wrong. We have examples of more than one apostle going out and baptizing people in the name of the Lord. Baptism in the name of the Lord is done with water (Acts 10:47-48). The apostle's actual examples of baptism disagrees with your assertion.


quote: c.moore
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We do get baptized because we want to show , and reveal also to ourselves what happen in the spirit baptism that counts for God,and is very important
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Nowhere in scripture will you find proof texts that supports this assertion. Nowhere. I've shown you more than one what the scriptures says about the purpose of baptism and what it does for us: frees us from sin and allows us to walk in the newness of life (Romans 6:1-11). And no, this isn't spririt baptism as you incorrectly think. Paul wrote Romans 6 and Paul practiced baptizing people in the name of the Lord, which is done with water (Acts 10:44-47).

Quote c.moore
If this is the case that the natural water ritual saves, then why don`t you still use lambs as offer to show that your sins are forgiven?

Why don`t you use the real blood of Jesus, or blood for repentance ?

Does the water baptism come before the spiritual baptism??

Kevin what do you think a spiritual baptism is In Jesus??

When we get spritual baptized it will last forever, and because God is spirit John 4:24 we should want to be more involved in the spiritual thing of God, because the natural things will perish
2Co:4:18: While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

And water is visible, you can see the water you go down in when getting wet, and you only be wet temporally .


peace

 

[c.moore]

Sorry for not answering your question. I obey because of both fear and love for my God. My answer really has no bearing on the fact that God expects obedience out of us.


Quote c.moore
perfect Love casted out fear.

 

[Evangelion]

Jerry -

You give no Scriptual evidence concerning your belief that water baptism means death,burial and resurrection.

I have already presented it, in my previous posts on this thread. I shall post it again, just as soon as I've finished with your argument.

If you are correct,how do you explain the fact that Peter went to Cornelius and his household to speak the WORDS by which they would be saved(Acts11:14),and upon believing the Spirit fell on them all(Acts10:44)?

Here we see that they were saved and yet not a drop of water had even touched them.

Two questions for you, Jerry:

• Where are we told that they were instantly "saved"?
  
• What happens after they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit?

I'll need you to answer the first question, but I can answer the second for you:

• 
  Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

So we see that Peter considered it necessary for these people to be baptised, despite the fact that the Holy Spirit had already fallen upon them. And yet you argue that "Spirit baptism" is the "one baptism" which all of us must share! So why did Peter insist on water baptism as well? Looks like you've got a theological redunancy here...

As for Matthew 21:28-32,the word "repent" simply means to change one´s mind.The first son changed his mind in regard to his father´s command to go to work.

The second son acted as if he would obey his father,but did not.
In reference to those with whom He was speaking,the Lord is saying that while some seemingly accepted the ministry of John the Baptist,their actions (Lk.7:29-30) proved that they were like the second son.They cause of their fall is stated as they "believed him not".

On the other hand,the harlots and tax collectors did BELIEVE him.

So we can see that entrance into the kingdom of God will be determined by who BELIEVES the Word of God.

Ah, that's a very nice try, Jerry. You get full marks for creativity! But you seem to have missed out verse 31, in which Jesus delivers the punchline...

• 
  Which of the two did the will of his father? They say, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.[/b]

He then goes on to discuss the ramifications of belief and repentance. But what is his primary message? Repent - believe - do the will of your Father.

Very simple.

In regard to 1Jn.5:2-4,this is saying that if we love God we will keep His commandments.Does this teach that our "eternal life" is dependent on keeping His commandments? No!If we love Him we want to serve Him.

*snip*

Circular argument. Please try again.

Now that I have answered your verses,

Oh, but you haven't! You totally ignored the parable of the sheep and goats, and you totally ignored the parable of the workers in the vineyard. So I need you to address these as well, please.

perhaps you will return the favor by addressing mine.

Sure thing. I've got a spare 30 seconds up my sleeve...

If you read on from the verses you presented at 1Jn.5:2-4,you will come to the following words:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

Notice the words--HATH given to us eternal life.They alreary have been given eternal life.And let us look at the Lord´s own words in regard to those who had received this eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life,and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH"(Jn.10:28).

Looks fine to me. It's a standard rhetorical device which you'll find all through Scripture - and it finds a parallel in passages where events which have not occurred, are spoken of as if they have. (Romans 4:17 says that He speaks of "things which are not, as if they were.")

Thus:

• 
  John 3:13-15.
  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

These verses appear to say that Jesus has already ascended into heaven, even though this even did not occur until Acts 1. Various commentators have been struck by Jesus' enigmatic expression:

• The perfect tense 'has ascended' is unexpected.
  Morris, John (1971), The Gospel According to John, New International Version Commentary on the New Testament.
  
• The use of the perfect tense is a difficulty, for it seems to imply that the Son of Man has already ascended into heaven.
  Brown, Raymond (1966), The Gospel According to John, Anchor Bible.
  
• The difficulty of this verse lies in the tense of 'has ascended.' It seems to imply that the Son of Man has already - at the moment of speaking - ascended into heaven.
  Barrett, C.K. (1972 ), The Gospel According to St. John.

See also:

• In Genesis 15:18, God says that He has given the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed. Yet Abraham NEVER possessed that land, and he still does not have it to this day. God referred to this gift in the past tense; Abraham understood that this was figurative language. He knew that God meant "This land is predestined to be the land of you and your seed."
  
• Ephesians 2:5-7 also uses the present tense in reference to a future event:
  
  
  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
  
  
  Are you currently sitting in heavenly places with Christ, Jerry? Literally? Right now? I suggest not...
  
• Verse 22 of John 17 contains identical language. Here, Jesus speaks of the disciples in a curious way. He says:
  
  
  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one
  
  
  That same "glory" which had been "given" to the son, is now referred to as if it had already been given to the disciples! Yet we know that this was not the case. Jesus is referring to the Second Advent and the reward of his followers. His words, therefore, must be read in this context.
  
• Again, in verse 4 of John 17, Jesus speaks of his death as if it had already been accomplished!
  
• In verse 9 of the same chapter - since the historical disciples are a model for all Christians - the Christians of a future time are envisaged.
  
• Jesus prayer continues (verse 11) with the words "I am no longer in the world" - though of course, he clearly was!
  
• Verse 18 - "I have sent them..." (referring to his disciples) even though he had not yet sent them.

I could provide other passages of this nature from both the Old and New Testaments, if you'd like to see them.

 

[Evangelion]

Jerry -

You give no Scriptual evidence concerning your belief that water baptism means death,burial and resurrection.

Allow me to introduce a fascinating man called "the apostle Paul", who wrote:

• 
  Romans 6:3-4.
  Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
  We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

This is a clear reference to water baptism. "Spirit baptism" (or whatever you people call it these days) is not the "baptism" referred to here. How do we know? There are several clues:

• Paul has used the Greek word baptizo, meaning "to dip or plunge." You tell me, Jerry - is water something that you can "dip or plunge" people into? How are we expected to "dip or plunge" somebody into the Holy Spirit, pray tell?
  
• We've already seen that baptism involves dipping or plunging - which means you need a literal liquid. (Water.) Can you "dip or plunge" someone into the Holy Spirit? No, you cannot. The Holy Spirit is "poured". That makes it an "annointing". If this was what Jesus had meant, he would have said "annoint them in the name of... etc." But he doesn't. He says "dip or plunge." So we need a liquid - and that liquid is water.
  
• Paul says that the baptism of which he speaks, is symbolic of death and resurrection. Only water baptism can fulfill this typology.

Why do I say that only water baptism can fulfill this typology? Very simple...

---- Repeat from previous post ----

The point I am making is that only water baptism can truly represent the death, burial and resurrection of a believer.

Observe:

• You descend into the water (death.)
  
• You remain under the water for a moment (burial.)
  
• You rise from the water (resurrection.)

None of this occurs in so-called "Spirit baptism", and that is why the only baptism by which we can be "buried with Christ", is water baptism. So for those who advocate "Spirit baptism" over water baptism - how can "Spirit baptism" fulfil the necessary symbolism of death, burial and resurrection?

Perhaps it's time to ask a few questions. I'll present the "water baptism" side, and I invite a "Spirit baptism" person to fill in the blanks on his/her side:

• Are there three stages to "Spirit baptism"? (There are with water baptism.)
  
• Is there a stage in which death is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
  
• Is there a stage in which burial is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
  
• Is there a stage in which resurrection is represented? (There is with water baptism.)

Identification with Christ - his death, burial and resurrection - is made possible by the two simple rituals that he instituted. One of these was the partaking of the memorial emblems - bread and wine. The other was water baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for the remission of sins.

I can readily expand on this, if necessary.

 

[c.moore]

agape

I John 2:4:
He [the man] that saith, I know [by personal acquaintance] him [God], and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him [the man].

If a person is not born again, the truth is not in him spiritually. But if a born-again believer says he knows God intimately and does not observe the commandment to walk in the light, the truth of The Word is not in that man's mind. The truth remains in the believer's spiritual being, but that person has not put on the truth in his mind.


this is very good explanation you made about salvation

praise God for you agape :up:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Evangelion,

How do we know that they were instantly saved.

Well,first of all,Peter was sent to Cornelius to tell the WORDS whereby Cornelius and all his household shall be saved:

"Who shall tell thee WORDS,by which thou and all thy house shall be saved"(Acts11:14).

Second of all,before they were baptized in water we see that "the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the WORD"(Acts10:44).

And from other Scriptual passsages we know that their sins had been taken away,or else the Holy Spirit would not have fallen upon them:

"...what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?And what communion hath light with darkness?(2Cor.6:14).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden his face from you,that He will not hear"(Isa.59:2).

So we can see that they truly believed the gospel and that their sins were remitted.And all this BEFORE a drop of water ever touched them.

And we also know that once they heard and believed the gospel,they are SEALED by the Holy Spirit UNTIL they put on their new immortal body:

"In Whom also AFTER YE BELIEVED,ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,Who is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession...sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body"(Eph.1:13,14;4:30;Ro.8:23).

So we can see that as soon as Cornelius and his household believed the WORD of their salvation,their ins were taken away and they were sealed by the Holy Spirit.And they will remain sealed until they receive their immortal bodies.

And all this without a drop of water touching them!

Next,it is clear that the one who did the will of the father in the parable is the one who worked in the vineyard.It is equally clear that in the case of the harlots and taxpayers,the ones that did the will of the Father in heaven are the ones that BELIEVED.

That is the first thing that the sinner should obey if He wants to do the will of the Father.And once we obey Him by believing,we are no longer under law.And "sin is not imputed when there is no law"(Ro.5:13).

"Because the law worketh wrath;for where no law is,there is no transgression"(Ro.4:15).

The Christian is not under law,so we can see that "God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"(1Thess.5:9).

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"(Ro.4:8).

The Lord will not impute sin to the Christian,and therefore he will not come into judgment:

"He that heareth My word,and believeth on Him that sent Me,hath everlasting life,and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT,but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

So we can see that once a sinner believes the gospel of salvation,he is not under law and his sins will not be imputed into his account.He will not come into judgment,and he shall never perish.

This post is getting too lengthy,so I will address your answer to 1Jn.5:11 and Jn.10:28 later.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JustAChristian]

You Do Err, Not Knowing The Scriptures...

You Do Err, Not Knowing The Scriptures...

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

We can see that the "baptism" of Romans 6:3-5 is about those who were "baptized into Jesus Christ":

"Know ye not that,as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?"

The ONLY place in Scripture where the believer is baptized into Christ it is by the Holy Spirit:

"For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).

"For as many as you have been baptized INTO CHRIST have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek...for ye are all one IN CHRIST JESUS"(Gal.3:27,28).

This is speaking of the Body of Christ,where there is neither Greek or Jew.

"And ye have put on the NEW MAN...where there is neither Greek nor Jew"(Col.3:10,11).

The NEW MAN is the Body of Christ:

"Having abolished in His flesh the enmity,even the law of commandments contained in ordinances,to make IN HIMSELF of two ONE NEW MAN"(Eph.2:15,16).

The only SCRIPTUAL baptism spoken of in regard to the New Man,the Body of Christ is that spoken by Paul:

"For by one SPIRIT were we all BAPTIZED into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

So JustAChristian,if you still insist that the baptism "into Jesus Christ"(Ro.6:3-5) refers to a "water baptism",where is your Scriptual evidence that states such a thing?

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,

You presume too much! The Holy Spirit in baptism is the agent and not the element!. The Eunuch of Acts 8 didn't go down into the Holy Spirit, but into water. He was baptized in water. Paul was commanded to rise and be baptized (Acts 22:16) and wash (spiritual cleansing) away thy sins. Here we see plainly that the Holy Spirit is not the cleansing element, for this was not his purpose. He is God's agent in many works, but not of cleansing. Why did the Spirit fall on man?

Not to save him

"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." Acts 11:13-14

Not to Purify His Heart.

"And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. " Acts 15:9

Not to Purify the Soul

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently" 1 Peter 1:22.

Not to give Remission of Sins.

" To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name (Christ) whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43.

There are many other verses that show the Holy Spirit has his part in God's plan for man, but it is not the part of salvation.


JustAChristian

The Holy Spirit is God's Agent but not the Cleansing Element.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

He has a vital part in man's access to God, but not the mission of purification.

Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

 

[Evangelion]

A few points:

• "Sealed" is not the same as "saved."
  
• You cited no passages which proved that the Holy Spirit only falls upon a person after their sins have been taken away. (Those which you did cite, do not actually say this.)
  
• Since you agree that "the one who did the will of the father in the parable is the one who worked in the vineyard, and "in the case of the harlots and taxpayers, the ones that did the will of the Father in heaven are the ones that BELIEVED", you cannot escape the conclusion that belief and obedience together are necessary if we wish to inherit eternal life and enter the kingdom of God.
  
• I agree that the Christian is not under the Law of Moses, but under grace. This does not, however, address my argument for the necessity of obedience.
  
• Sin is not imputed where no responsibility exists, and no responsibility exists where a man is ignorant of God's law.
  
• Christians are "imputed righteous", and God "will not impute sin" to them for as long as they continue in His grace. But if they continue to abuse that gift, and walk unworthy of the gift that He offers, they will be condemned, as Hebrews 6 assures us. Paul himself had answered this question with the words of Romans 6:
  
  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
  
  ...
  
  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
  
  ...
  
  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
  

The references to obedience are rather striking, don't you think...? Clearly, our salvation is conditional on our continued obedience. We are still capable of sinning - but we are called to resist it.

 

[Evangelion]

Thanks for taking up the slack, Just A Christian - you've done a fine job. :up:

I really appreciate it.

 

[JustAChristian]

Just Preaching...

Just Preaching...

Originally posted by Evangelion
Thanks for taking up the slack, Just A Christian - you've done a fine job. :up:

I really appreciate it.

Thanks for the encouragement.

JustAChristian