The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

You say that "a person who has true belief in Jesus will keep His commandments,which require unconditional obedience."

Are you telling me that since you believed you have completely obeyed the commandments of God?

When asked,"Which is the great commandment of the law?",the Lord Jesus named two commandments.The second is ,"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"(Mt.22:39).

Do you love your neighbor as yourself,Kevin?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Kevin]

Hello Jerry,

Are you telling me that since you believed you have completely obeyed the commandments of God?

In other words am I perfect? No. Not even remotely close. Putting it bluntly, if Jesus commands it, I try to do my best to my ability to follow those commandments. It's humanly impossible to follow 100% of the commandments 100% of the time. That's why we have Jesus there to mediate for us when we repent of our sins and ask for forgivness.

God knows all of our hearts. He knows who strives to obey His commandments and who doesn't. The thing is, when people know that something is a commandment, and chooses not to obey it, that is willful disobedience, and He won't tolerate it. But to the person who keeps His commandments and messes up every now and then and asks for forgiveness, to that person Jesus is the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5:9).

 

[Ian Day]

Saving baptism is in blood !

Saving baptism is in blood !

What is saving baptism ?
What is salvation?
Ultimately eternal life, IN CHRIST. THe transformation of a sinner, once dead in trespasses & sins to a living relationship with God in Christ. (John 3, Eph. 2)

This salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, so that believers are said to be born of the Spirit (John 3) or born of God (John 1).

Jesus said that to have life, we have to eat his flesh & drink his blood. (John 6)

I think that all of us will agree that Jesus is speaking figuratively. He's not speaking of communion but the spiritual significance, of which communion is the sign.

Partaking of communion is not eating & drinking the flesh & blood of Jesus. Without already having eternal life, communion is not eating & drinking the flesh & blood of Christ.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

[Testament is if course COVENANT not "will."]

Is baptism essentially immersing a person in water, who then becomes a Christian & receives remission of sins? (suggested by Acts 2:38)

We need to understand "baptism" in terms of its Old Covenant usage, not in terms of ancient Greek recipes for pickles.

Immersion can be inferred from Romans 6, but it nowhere specifically taught in Scripture. Note that the Old COvenant baptism is sprinkling with the blood of the sacrifice. (or the ashes of a sacrifice mixed with water.)

Hebr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers (washings) BAPTISMS, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The significance of baptism is the application of the blood of Christ to the repentant sinner. It speaks to the sinner of the cleansing of his conscience by the precious blood.

And by submitting to baptism, the repentance sinner shows he is a repentant sinner, trusting in the blood of Christ for his cleansing from all sin, and that he is identifying himself with the people of God redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. And declaring his intention to serve the living God.

Hebrews shows that the blood of Christ is the blood of the New Covenant, compared with the blood of the Old Covenant:

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Peter speaks of believers being sprinkled with the blood of Christ:

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

And baptism cleansing the conscience:
3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Note that it is not the washing but the significance. The antitype (like figure) of being in the ark is being IN CHRIST, by all that baptism signifies.

(Kevin)
If those people hadn't obeyed Peter and gotten baptized, I can assure you that those people's sins wouldn't have been forgiven. When Jesus commands it in the great commission, He expects it to be obeyed. And there's no way that you can convince me that baptism doesn't play a role in the remission of sins, because when Romans 6:3-6 tells me that it will make our bodies of sin done away with, and I believe just that.

Those who believed WERE baptised, and received all the benefits of the saving & cleansing blood of Christ. Those who rejected the message, & did not turn to God & refused baptism did not receive remission. Baptism was a sign to the new believers of the applied blood of Christ. They were baptised as new believers.

New believers, with new life, spiritual life, new hearts, express their faith in Christ.

Whether they are baptised by immersion, or sprinkling, or as infants who believe that theirs was a covenant baptism analogous to circumcision, the new life is real, and is expressed by active obedience & walking with God, in the Spirit. (Micah 6, Gal. 5)

 

[c.moore]

be baptized

be baptized

that is great knowledge Ian I agree with you.
I think it is obedience to or Lord Jesus to be baptized in water, like Jesus sence we try to follow jesus ways and do greater things as Jesus Christ we should be fully baptized to show other peolpe like a outward tesimony that we are giving up our old ways, and the sins are buried in the water, and when we come out the water we are beginning a new walk with Jesus Christ.
I believe the baptism will not save anybody, but it is a act of obedience, and it shows the love toward Jesus Christ, who is God.
The first and most important step is the spiritual baptism, and the washing of the blood of Jesus, that is the key to salvation.
I thought I can just add this to gain more knowledge.

God Bless
With all your getting get understanding. prov 4:7

Evangeist C.Moore

 

[HopeofGlory]

Kevin

If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death. You say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

Faith is required not water baptism which you agreed was a "work". If a work is required then salvation must be earned.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

We are justified by His blood and the only way that can be received is by faith.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be "free".

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)

Notice that it says baptized "into Jesus" not into "water". How are we to get into Jesus?...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)

Here it says "into death" not "water" . In other words when we are baptized by the Spirit we are in His body and we died with Him and it is received through "faith".

 

[Jason]

Kevin

But to the person who keeps His commandments and messes up every now and then and asks for forgiveness, to that person Jesus is the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5:9).

A distinction:

Our flesh (the nature we inherited from Adam) can never be forgiven. Instead God judged it to death at the cross.
Our sins (the works of the flesh) are covered/forgiven by the blood of our Lord.

The fact that we mess up every now and then is the result of us still walking in the flesh. Even the good we do in the flesh is as filthy rags. Even after our new birth we still have the flesh nature. If there is no more flesh then why do we stumble still in many things? (James 3 v 2) The question is which life are you living from?

"For we know that whoever is born of God does not sin"
1 John 5 v 18

If you are living in dependence on the flesh you are under law, and because you are under law you manifest the fruits of the flesh. The strength of sin is the law.
If you are living in dependence on the Spirit you have no need of the law. You will manifest the fruits of the Spirit because you are free in your position in Christ. This freedom is our inheritance as we have been baptised into Christ, and He is now our righteousness, santification etc.

When we sin ours is the responsibility to confess and then to claim our forgiveness based on our position being in Christ. It is not our responsibility to try harder. It is because of this thinking that we fail in the first place. See Romans 7. Freedom from sin is a right not an effort, based on the the work of redemtion that the Father orchestrated for His good purpose.

William Kelly states:

Every believer is regarded by God as alive from the dead, to bring forth fruit [not works] unto God. The law only deals with a man as long as he lives; never after he is dead. 'For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.' And that is not at all what is said after a 'second blessing,' ... or any other step of imaginary perfection. We began with it ... I am identified with Christ dead and risen. It is no longer the law dealing with me to try if it can get any good out of me. I have relinquished all by receiving the Lord Jesus, and I take my stand in Him dead and risen again ... as one alive from the dead, to yield myself to God.

The Gospel supposes that, good and holy and perfect as the law of God is, it is entirely powerless either to justify or sanctify. It cannot in any way make the old nature better; neither is it the rule of life for the new nature. The old man is not subject to the law, and the new man does not need it. The new creature has another object before it, and another power acts upon it, in order to produce what is lovely and acceptable to God - Christ the object, realized by the power of the Holy Spirit

 

[Jason]

It is not "our" obedience but by the obedience of "one" so that the gift may be free.

Hopeofglory I like it!

 

[HopeofGlory]

Jason

Thank you very much dear brother and may all the praise and glory be given to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ the God of heaven.

 

[Kevin]

Ian,

This salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, so that believers are said to be born of the Spirit (John 3) or born of God (John 1).

Actually John 3 states "water and Spirit". Not just Spirit.

Jesus said that to have life, we have to eat his flesh & drink his blood. (John 6)

Jesus also said that He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Why are you bringing Jesus's blood into this? I fully realize the signifcance of Jesus's blood. Without it, there wouldn't be any chance of salvation.

But Jesus's blood won't do anybody any good unless we obey His commandments and become baptized INTO CHRIST.

Immersion can be inferred from Romans 6, but it nowhere specifically taught in Scripture. Note that the Old COvenant baptism is sprinkling with the blood of the sacrifice. (or the ashes of a sacrifice mixed with water.)

It may not *specifically* be taught in scripture, but if we are symbolically buried into the death of Jesus through baptism, sprinkling would not come even close to burying somebody, but immersion is spot on with that. When somebody dies, do they take a few handfuls of dirt and throw it on them and say "Yup, he's buried now."? No, they completely cover him, just like immersion completely coverers people.

When Phillip batized the eunich, he baptized him in a river, certainly large enough for immersion. The many baptistry pools that are in Jerusalem, they're around 5 plus feet deep... why do you suppose that is? For sprinkling? Not even.

 

[servantofChrist]

Whoa Everybody!

I've been reading everyone's posts on works and baptism and I don't even know where to start!

It is more than astonishing, it is AMAZING, how some people will spend nearly a lifetime trying to "prove" that plain statements of the Bible don't really mean what they say!

Observe:

Acts 16:31 says, "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you will be SAVED."

Do you believe that the above statement teaches that BELIEVING in Jesus is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor. 7:10 says, "Godly sorrow brings REPENTANCE that leads to SALVATION."

Do you believe that the above statement teaches that REPENTANCE is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 10:10 says, "It is with the mouth that you CONFESS and are SAVED."

Do you believe the above statement teaches that CONFESSION is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

1 Pet. 3:21 says, "BAPTISM also now SAVES you."

Do you believe the above statement teaches that BAPTISM is necessary to be saved? You say, "No." Why? You tell me!

(A) Because it doesn't fit what I was taught
(B) Because I only choose to believe the first 3, not the 4th one
(C) Because baptism is a "work" and we're not saved by works
(D) Because I know that the verse plainly says that baptism saves us, but I've been taught by Pastor so-and-so that baptism does NOT save us. So... even though the scriptures say plainly that "baptism also now saves you," well, that's different from those other 3 you put up there before it. Don't ask me why, I just know it is. I'm going to have to go along with my pastor, after all, he's such a good man and has such a kind, sincere way about him. Everyone's known and loved him for so many, many years. Now how can you NOT believe someone like that if he says baptism is not necessary to be saved. No sir, I'll put my trust in Pastor so-and-so, rather in what the Bible says!

I have a question for all of you who are so hung up on the idea of "works": Do you believe the scriptures teach that a person must REPENT in order to be saved? And you because you think that baptism is a "work," that it doesn't save us? Have you ever seen someone who has heard the message of truth, who knows what he needs to do, but is so enslaved to pornography or compulsive gambling or hooked on illegal drugs, to such a terrible degree that it represents a COLOSSAL effort and struggle on his part to CHANGE, which is exactly what repentance is. So, with tears in his eyes, he tries to change, but yet he is tormented by not being able to break free from being so enslaved to his lust for the sinful pleasures of this world.

You talk about a lot of WORK! It takes some people a TREMENDOUS amount of WORK, a struggle for some, to repent of their sins and turn to Christ and begin trying to live an almost COMPLETELY DIFFERENT way of life.

But according to all of you who are so hung up on the idea of "works," repentance then is NOT necessary to the one who takes a lot of "WORK" to get the job done. Because anything that is a "work" just isn't a part of being saved.

I have one more question, regarding baptism...

Those of you who cite Eph. 2:8, and say that this proves that baptism is NOT necessary to be saved, but rather only "grace through faith"... if the words of Eph. 2:8 are the correct words to use in telling someone what to do to be saved, then why were they NOT the words the Holy Spirit spoke at the conclusion of the very first gospel message ever spoken (Acts 2), to those who asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Why didn't the Holy Spirit say, "Just have faith, because you are all saved by grace through faith." And why did he NOT say, "Just believe in the Lord Jesus, you don't have to be baptized because baptism is a work and you are not saved by works." Nor did the Holy Spirit tell them to just "say the sinner's prayer, and mean it sincerely from your heart, and you will be forgiven of your sins and be saved."

Instead, what the Holy Spirit DID say to that multitude of people who were condemned in their sins, was - Repent AND BE BAPTIZED, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS...." (Acts 2:38)

I truly pity anyone who, when God has plainly told us all what to do to have our sins forgiven, goes before Him in the Great Judgment, and tries to explain to Him why they repented, but DID NOT obey His command to "be baptized" for the forgiveness of their sins; when BOTH commands - "Repent" and "be baptized" - were given in the Greek in the IMPERATIVE mood, which gives REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM EQUAL AUTHORITY, EQUAL URGENCY, AND THEREFORE BOTH ARE EQUALLY BINDING on people of all nations to obey.

 

[Kevin]

HopeofGlory,

If we read Romans 5 we can see how we are baptized into his death. You say it is by obeying in water baptism but this is not what Paul said.

There is only one baptism, and Jesus's baptism includes water.

John 3:5 states:

5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless on is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

That verse is clearly speaking about the requirements for being reborn, and it includes water, as well as the Holy Spirit. Anybody who teaches that water isn't necessary goes against this verse, and thus Jesus.

That's why the Bible has examples like Phillip baptizing the Ethiopian. Look for yourself in Acts 8:35-36:

35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"

This isn't the baptism of John... no siree, this is the baptism of Jesus Christ mentioned here (verse 35). The fact that the eunuch asked "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" proves that Phillip instructed baptism with water, or why would the enuch mention water at all? Phillip was instructing the eunuch about baptism, which is what Jesus commanded in the great commission (Matt. 28:19-20), and it inlcudes water. This passage and the "unless you are born of water and Spirit" passage proves that water is involved.

Another example of Jesus's baptism requiring water is in Acts 10:47-48:

47) Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

I couldn't say it any plainer. Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized (IN THE NAME OF THE LORD).

Again, there is only one baptism, and it says in the above verse that people baptized in in the name of the Lord (baptized into Christ, buried with Him through baptism) inlcludes water (verse 47).

 

[Ian Day]

Kevin,

Please read my arguments from Hebrews 9 & reply.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Kevin

QUOTE]5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless on is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

That verse is clearly speaking about the requirements for being reborn, and it includes water, as well as the Holy Spirit. Anybody who teaches that water isn't necessary goes against this verse, and thus Jesus.[/QUOTE]

The verse does not say "reborn" of water but "born" of water. The parallelism (use of identical or equivalent syntactic constructions in corresponding clauses or phrases found through out the bible) of the corresponding verse interprets "born of water" for us.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)

So we see that "born of water" is equivalent to "born of the flesh". Also within verse 3:6 we see the contrast between the flesh and the Spirit and this contrast should be applied to it's corresponding verse in 3:5 which is a indentical syntatic construction.

The baptism performed by Jesus is with the Spirit and is not related to water for John said....."I indeed baptize you with water but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost Matt. 3:11. Again we see the contrast between water and Spirit.... I baptism with water "but" (on the contrary) He shall baptism with the Holy Ghost.

I agree there is only "one" baptism and it is ...For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body... 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)

 

[Kevin]

Ian,

What exactly is your point about Hebrews 9? I called my wife in here to see if she could see your point, and she doesn't know what you're trying to say, as I don't either.

Thanks.

 

[Kevin]

Context... context...

Context... context...

HopeofGlory,

The verse does not say "reborn" of water but "born" of water. The parallelism (use of identical or equivalent syntactic constructions in corresponding clauses or phrases found through out the bible) of the corresponding verse interprets "born of water" for us.

The reason I used the word "reborn" is because of the question that Jesus is answering. You aren't looking at this verse in it's proper context, so I will quote John 3:3-5 for you:

3) Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4) Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus was clearly talking about how one becomes "born again", not how one is "born" (verse 3). In verse 4, Nicodemus asked how one is born again. Jesus then answered Nicodemus how one becomes "born again" (reborn) in verse 5: water and Spirit.

 

[Ian Day]

Kevin,

Ian,

What exactly is your point about Hebrews 9? I called my wife in here to see if she could see your point, and she doesn't know what you're trying to say, as I don't either.

Thanks.

My all red posting on page 6 explains (or tries to)

Hebrews 9:10 refers to "baptisms" but for some strange reason is always translated "washings".
Young's Literal Translation gives: only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances -- till the time of reformation imposed upon [them].

Hebrews then goes on in chapter 9 to explain the "different baptisms" & their significance. Particularly the red heifer ritual (Numbers 19) & the covenant ritual (Ex. 24). If you look in Numbers 19:18 in the Greek you will see that that baptism is "dip & sprinkle" the dip word being bapsei.
Num 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip [it] in the water, and sprinkle [it] upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave.

(Use the http://www.blueletterbible.org )

THe bottom line is that Hebrews understands "baptism" in the Old Covenant Scriptures as a "dip & sprinkle" procedure. Christian baptism uses water to symbolically apply the blood of Christ.
Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

By this I understand that baptism by sprinkling, signifying the application of the cleansing blood, is a valid mode of baptism, and may be the commanded method.

It does not invalidate the "death/burial/resurrection" significance, for it identifies the sinner with the sacrifice.

Note also:
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Also note that the Jewish leaders expected baptism as a Messianic ritual:
John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

I hope that makes it clear.

 

[servantofChrist]

I just want to say that "Kevin" hit the target right in middle of the bullseye! His use of the scriptures is true to the mark, about the one baptism being WATER baptism.

The example of Acts 8 serves to prove this, when Philip the evangelist preached Christ to the Ethiopian eunuch, and had concluded his message, the eunuch asked, "See, here is WATER, what hinders me from being baptized." It is clear that the scriptures connect preaching Christ (thus, His gospel message) with WATER baptism. The ex. in Acts 10, of the house of Cornelius also shows this. The baptism of the Holy Spirit came upon them AT THE TIME OF GOD'S CHOOSING, completely independent of their own will. Yet, after this bap. of the Holy Spirit, at the conclusion of Peter's message, he asked who could forbid the "WATER" for those their to be baptized who had heard and believed his message. And then it says that Peter "ORDERED" [KJV, "COMMANDED"] them to be baptized. Thus, HOLY SPIRIT baptism is a ONE-WAY affair. It is "poured out" on certain ones at the time, place, and circumstance OF GOD's CHOOSING; whereas WATER baptism is a command that people must VOLUNTARILY obey. This is the baptism that people of "all nations" must obey if they wish to be a disciple of Christ. This is EXACTLY what Matt. 28:19-20, Acts 2:38, and Acts 8 (Philip and the eunuch) are teaching.

One of the very reasons the example of Philip and the eunuch was recorded in the scriptures, so people of all generations may learn from it, was to show that WATER baptism is the baptism administered to people who believe and obey the gospel of Christ.

Changing the subject... I just want to say, please, that my posts will probably rather few and somewhat far between, for a while anyway, because of the many, many other things that are demanding my attention presently. One of which is, a big load of Bible correspondence courses that just arrived at church from Africa, and I am one of those who grade them. They are VERY time-consuming.

So, if I don't post for a while, it DOESN"T mean that someone has said something that I am unable to "answer," it just means that I am smothered under a lot of other things that I MUST attend to, as well.

I thank the moderators so very much, and all those who put this theology discussion forum together and provided it on the internet - THANK YOU ALL SO VERY, VERY MUCH.

And one last thing, in all our differences in doctrinal matters, let us not forget that we all need to speak with ONE VOICE about the risen Savior - the LORD JESUS CHRIST, because the religion of Islam seems to be rapidly taking over not only the world, but is spreading rapidly throughout this country. And their "god" and religion does NOT tolerate, peacefully anyway, Christianity being diligently preached and practiced (esp. trying to convert members of their religion to Christ), as a short mental "scan" of this picture in Islamic nations will bear out. We MUST all pray and pray that the one and only True God, "Jehovah," will keep the door of opportunity continually open for those who name the Name of Christ, and pray that the pathway will continually be unobstructed that gives free course for Christ and His gospel message to continue in, in this country. But we must ALL be diligent in taking advantage of these opportunities that God gives us, lest they be taken away from us. We must speak forth boldly, yet diplomatically, the name of JESUS CHRIST whenever the opportunity presents itself. May God give us the courage and spirit to do so.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

Re: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

As expected we have heretics spreading their destructive doctrines on this forum, namely O2bewise. Mr. O2bewise said the following on September 6th: "Salvation can only come by baptism".

This pawn of Satan embraces and promotes a doctrine that will lead many to eternal hell. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Baptism is not a requirement!

One attains eternal life (Salvation) thru simple belief in the person of Jesus. We see this in the words of Jesus when He said: "Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life" (John 3:15).

Another time when addressing the people of His day, Jesus was asked: "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent" (John 6:28-29).

Note no mention of baptism.

Jesus made it clear O2bewise: I AM THE GATE; WHOEVER ENTERS THROUGH ME WILL BE SAVED (John 10:9).

Again no mentione of baptism, apparently to o2bewise Jesus must have misspoken here.

I would urge my fellow believers in the Lord Jesus to come against O2bewise's devilish doctrines. This man degrades our Lord when He speaks against Him by stating Baptism is required to be saved. This is in direct opposition to what our Lord said. Jesus said just come unto Him and you will be saved.

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

I think for me and my household we will listen to Jesus then o2bewise and his wicked ways.

I am sure that o2bewise can show where baptism is essential for salvation from the scriptures, but can freak show where "faith only" plus nothing and minus nothing saves?

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Study On Baptism

Study On Baptism

Since you think baptism is part of the Gospel I stand by all my statements.

Have you read 1 Cor. 15 where paul clealry explained what the Gospel is? Hint: It has nothing to do with baptism.

Freak,

If I may, allow me an opportunity to post a statement on the subject of baptism. I believe that this is one of the most misunderstood subjects in the New Testament. It is not that the subject can not be understood, but I believe the Prince of this world, Satan, has blinded the minds of people to simple New Testament conclusions of which baptism is greatly mentioned. Until people accept that Jesus has required a series of acts on our part which can easily be found within the pages of the gospel, after the apostles went forth to preach, we will never understand the beginning of the gospel or the progress of the gospel. To this extent, I am posting an entry on the subject of Baptism.

STUDY ON BAPTISM (Statements made to a student).

It is arresting that you should say, and I quote, "The ceremony of baptism in itself does not save us..." when Peter, the Apostle said, and I quote, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet 3:21).

You said that in baptism we "pledge to God our lives." The problem with that statement is that the bible does not say that. It says that baptism is the "answer of a good conscience before God". That is to say that in baptism, a person is appealing to God for a cleansed conscience and the answer comes from heaven cleansing the person of past sins. This is stated in Hebrews 9:14 "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM
Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)

There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.
Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)

The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)

At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.

Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.

When explaining good works, you said "but those who are saved but do no good works, still get in but have no special credit."
There is not a single passage of scripture to butress this ascertion. In fact the bible says, concerning those who are interested in eternal life, "To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"(Rom 2:7), and again, "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. {9} And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT." (Gal 6:8-9), and again, "And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they BE NOT UNFRUITFUL." (Titus 3:14), and again, "Every branch in me that BEARETH NOT FRUIT He(God, the Father) taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." (John 15:2) People that "do no good works" as you put it, do not have a shred of evidence of being connected to Christ and the eternal purpose of God, for Eph 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." "Good works" in this sense are not works that earn salvation, but actions that are EVIDENCE of the working of salvation in a believer's life!--an important truth to see indeed!!

JustAChristian

 

[Huguenot]

Fascinating discussion and one worthy of this board. Since I am lazy right now I'll have to wait a few days. Please keep this thread alive!