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The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

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  • Feak,

    Is baptism mentioned in 1 Cor. 15 where Paul reminds the believers what the Gospel consist of?
    You bet it is. You know how I know? The fact that all those people were baptized. And how did they know that they were supposed to be baptized? By what Paul preached to them. What did Paul preach? THE GOSPEL.

    Paul's purpose was to preach the gospel. And preach the gospel he did. Next thing you know, people were baptized, which means that part of the gospel message must have included baptism, or how else would they have known to get baptized? If baptism wasn't a part of the gospel, then he wouldn't have commanded baptism, because he wasn't supposed to preach any other gospel other than the one Jesus commanded him to preach in Matt. 28:19-20 (which explicitly states the commandment of baptism). Those people obeyed the gospel they heard from Paul by being baptized. How else would they know to get baptized if Paul didn't preach it to them? The fact is, Paul preached it, and they obeyed it.

    Paul's main focus of his duties was not to baptize people, which is why he said that he wasn't sent to baptize. But he DID preach baptism and it's necessity, because Jesus Christ commanded it to be observed by ALL people in Matthew 28:20. And Paul, unlike many people in this world, understood the necessity of obeying Christ's commandments.

    Freak, explain to me how somebody can ignore Jesus's commandments and still be saved when the Bible says:

    Romans 2:6-9
    6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds."
    7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath,
    9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    Hebrews 5:9
    9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

    1 John 3:24
    24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

    Revelation 22:14
    14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.


    Facts:

    1) The above verses state that people who obey Jesus's commandments will be saved.
    2) Baptism was commanded by Jesus Christ.

    Again, explain to me how somebody can ignore Jesus's commandments, one of which is baptism (Matt 28:19-20), and still be saved, knowing that it is the obedient people who will have rights to the tree of life, not the disobedient ones.
    Last edited by Kevin; September 16th, 2001, 02:50 AM.
    Praise be to God!

    Comment


    • Let's try this again.

      Did Paul mention baptism in 1 Cor. 15 where he reminded the believers of what the Gospel is?

      Very simple question. Yet for some odd reason you avoid it.

      Again the Gospel is centered on the person of Christ not an act that involves water. Though baptism is important (ever believer needs to be baptized). It is NOT however a part of the Gospel message, it is merely a response to the Gospel.

      Paul stated very clearly justification is by faith (Romans 5:1). Justification is not by baptism as you wrongly claim. Yes, as a believer one should obey His commandments but not for salvation. That would be absurd since no human can keep any commandment without the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. So, one first needs to be saved, then they will have the power to live a life of obedience.

      Comment


      • Re: Context... context...

        Originally posted by Kevin
        [B]The reason I used the word "reborn" is because of the question that Jesus is answering. You aren't looking at this verse in it's proper context, so I will quote John 3:3-5 for you:
        You have not comprehended the meaning or either you refuse the simplicity of the words in favor of your doctrine! "Born of water" is interpreted in the next verse as "born of the flesh". How one can believe salvation is attained by an act that they perform is without understanding as to how we receive righteousness.

        Your insistance that we must be water baptized and receive the Holy Ghost before our sins are remitted is further proof that you do not understand the gospel of Christ.

        John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)

        They received "remission of sins" and yet the Holy Ghost had not fell of them. You deny these inspired words because it disproves your interpretation of John and destroys your doctrine of works.

        You claim we must "obey" your doctrine but to the contrary the bible refutes your idea of our obedience.

        For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

        Paul clearly stated "ONE" baptism not two and no one with any understanding at all can believe water baptism and Spirit baptism are a single occurrence and thus we cannot consider them to be "ONE" baptism.

        I am amazed that even though salvation is "freely" given you say, no way we must earn it .

        Comment


        • Freak,

          Did Paul mention baptism in 1 Cor. 15 where he reminded the believers of what the Gospel is?
          How is verse 15 a "reminder" of what the gospel is? Where does Paul define the gospel and what it is in that verse? For the second time, how did those people know that they were to be baptized if it wasn't a part of the gospel message? When Paul preached to them, they were baptized, so baptism, at some point of his preaching was brought up, or how would they know to do it?

          The gospel is defined by dictionary.com as this:

          "One of the first four New Testament books, describing the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus and recording his teaching."

          That is what the gospel is. Look at the part that talks about Jesus's death. When we are baptized, we are baptized into his what? DEATH. That's certainly in accordance the teachings of the gospel.

          Now look at the part that says "and recording His teaching." Did He not teach baptism? If you say "no", then explain to me why Jesus bothered with John 3:5, Mark 16:16, and Matt. 28:19-20.

          Yes, as a believer one should obey His commandments but not for salvation.
          Oh really? I have shown you verses that show that obedient people are the ones who will have rights to the tree of life, which has everything to do with salvation. If you don't have rights to the tree of life, then you aren't saved. Simple.

          Now I would like to you show me a verse that says that those who are disobedient will have rights to the tree of life.
          Praise be to God!

          Comment


          • **** oops **** double post.... sorry...

            Deleted duplicate...
            Praise be to God!

            Comment


            • HopeofGlory,

              You have not comprehended the meaning or either you refuse the simplicity of the words in favor of your doctrine!
              I'll tell you what, if you can show me that the answer that Jesus gave Nicodemus in John 3:5 was in answer to something other than what it takes to be "born again", then I will retract my statement.

              It's incredible, you're actually trying (unsuccessfully) to convince me that John 3:3-4 doesn't say what it does, that is speaks about being born again and that Nicodemus is asking how one is born again. Jesus answers the question that was just asked of him, in verse 5... telling is how one is "born again". Verse 5 even begins with "Jesus answered".

              Your insistance that we must be water baptized and receive the Holy Ghost before our sins are remitted is further proof that you do not understand the gospel of Christ.
              I feel the same way about you. It amazes me how things can be so clearly commanded by our Lord, only to have people say it isn't necessary. How sad.

              John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)

              They received "remission of sins" and yet the Holy Ghost had not fell of them. You deny these inspired words because it disproves your interpretation of John and destroys your doctrine of works.
              Those people sins were not forgiven when they recieved the baptism of John. It was called a baptism for the remission of sins to prepare people for the baptism that would forgive sins, the baptism of Jesus Christ. That's why people who had only the baptism of John were rebaptized in the name of the Lord. If John's baptism forgave their sins, there wouldn't be a need to get baptized again. But they did get baptized again.

              Also, if you are implying that the baptism of John actually forgave sins, then explain to me why Jesus bothered coming down to earth and dying for us, if there was already an avenue of salvation available.

              You claim we must "obey" your doctrine but to the contrary the bible refutes your idea of our obedience.
              All I can do is shake my head at this statement. Look at these verses again:

              Hebrews 5:9
              9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

              1 John 3:24
              24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

              Revelation 22:14
              14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.


              HopeofGlory, those verses are from the Holy Bible!. It's not "my" doctrine.

              I am amazed that even though salvation is "freely" given you say, no way we must earn it .
              You're right, it is freely given. But we as humans must accept it, and accepting it means that you will obey it as well, othewise, you are agruing with the verse about obedience I stated above. That's like saying "Yeah Lord, I believe everything you told me... but I don't think it's necessary to obey your commandments, even though we are told to do exactly that! I'm sure you don't really mean what you say, right?".
              Last edited by Kevin; September 16th, 2001, 06:39 PM.
              Praise be to God!

              Comment


              • Freak,

                Here's another thing I noticed:

                Again the Gospel is centered on the person of Christ not an act that involves water. Though baptism is important (ever believer needs to be baptized). It is NOT however a part of the Gospel message, it is merely a response to the Gospel.
                You say that baptism is a "response" to the gospel, and is not part of the gospel. Well, if those people responded by being baptized, then at some point during the gospel message, baptism was commanded, or how would they know to respond? Why would Paul preach or command anything that isn't part of the gospel?
                Praise be to God!

                Comment


                • Kevin

                  It's incredible, you're actually trying (unsuccessfully) to convince me that John 3:3-4 doesn't say what it does, that is speaks about being born again and that Nicodemus is asking how one is born again. Jesus answers the question that was just asked of him, in verse 5... telling is how one is "born again".
                  I never said the "verses" were not in reference to being born again, another misunderstanding on your part. Jesus said you must be born of water (of the flesh) and of the Spirit (born again).

                  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? John 3:4 (KJV)

                  Nicodemus asked how can a man be born again of his mother's womb (of water)?

                  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 (KJV)

                  Jesus replies, except a man is born of water (womb) and Spirit (born) he can not enter heaven.Let me say it another way, Jesus said "born" of water and that is what he ment "born" of water not "born again" or "reborn" of water and it is understood that "born" applies to "of the Spirit" not "born again" or "reborn" of the Spirit. These are two "borns" not one born again. You can argue that until the day you die but the verse will remain the same.

                  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)

                  Jesus interpreted the meaning of verse 5, being born of water we are flesh and being born of the Spirit we are spirit unless YOU believe He just threw that in so we would know that when we are born of the flesh we are flesh. ((((LOL))))

                  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8 (KJV)

                  Jesus explains it again for all those who are a little slow to understand "every one that is born of the Spirit" not born of the Spirit and water.

                  Those people sins were not forgiven when they recieved the baptism of John. It was called a baptism for the remission of sins to prepare people for the baptism that would forgive sins, the baptism of Jesus Christ. That's why people who had only the baptism of John were rebaptized in the name of the Lord. If John's baptism forgave their sins, there wouldn't be a need to get baptized again. But they did get baptized again.
                  I assume you believe your "baptism of Jesus" occurred at Pentecost but we see it is the same baptism for "remission of sins".

                  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the "remission of sins". Mark 1:4 (KJV)

                  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the "remission of sins", and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)

                  I know this may be hard for YOU to understand but both received the same "remission of sins". The burden is yours to prove otherwise! The terminology "baptism of Jesus" that you continue to use is not biblical and is yet another example of twisting the truth to "imply" a different baptism at Pentecost.

                  Also, if you are implying that the baptism of John actually forgave sins, then explain to me why Jesus bothered coming down to earth and dying for us, if there was already an avenue of salvation available.
                  You are a classic example of not being able to divide the word of truth. I imply nothing but believe what the bible says as we ALL should and that is "remission of sins" was received by water baptism beginning with John the Baptist and at Pentecost, there is no difference, it is the same baptism. If you say those water baptism for remission of sins in the Gospels did not actually have forgiveness of sins then you must hold the same for those at Pentecost or prove otherwise!

                  All I can do is shake my head at this statement. Look at these verses again:

                  Hebrews 5:9
                  9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

                  1 John 3:24
                  24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

                  Revelation 22:14
                  14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.

                  HopeofGlory, psssst, come here for a moment... those verses there... those are from the Holy Bible!. It's not "my" doctrine.

                  This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Gen. 17:10 (KJV)

                  Kevin, pssst, that verse is from the Holy Bible do you believe it applies to you?

                  You're right, it is freely given. But we as humans must accept it, and accepting it means that you will obey it as well, othewise, you are agruing with the verse about obedience I stated above. That's like saying "Yeah Lord, I believe everything you told me... but I don't think it's necessary to obey your commandments, even though we are told to do exactly that! I'm sure you don't really mean what you say, right?".
                  Kevin, if you "must" be water baptized to be saved it is not "free"!

                  No one is arguing we are not to obey Christ but that only faith in "HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS" saves us. We obey out of love for Him not in order for Him to repay for it is then of debt.

                  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
                  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
                  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)

                  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Rom. 4:4 (KJV)
                  5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom. 4:5 (KJV)

                  Comment


                  • Kevin,

                    Let's try one more time.

                    In 1 Cor. chapter 15 (not verse 15 as you wrongly assumed), but chapter 15, did the Apostle Paul mention baptism when we reminded the believers of what the Gospel is?

                    Comment


                    • HopeofGlory,

                      I never said the "verses" were not in reference to being born again, another misunderstanding on your part.
                      Perhaps if you had addressed them in you last post there wouldn't be any misunderstandings about that.

                      Jesus replies, except a man is born of water (womb) and Spirit (born) he can not enter heaven.
                      We differ yet again . The water is not speaking about the water of the womb, because ,again, verse 5 is an answer to a question asked about how one can be born again. Because this verse is an answer (it even starts with "Jesus answered") to the question of how to be born again, crawling up into our mother's womb as an adult isn't the answer. Water means water, and Spirit means Spirit.

                      If you look at 2 Cor. 5:17, it states:

                      17) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold , all things have become new.

                      If anyone is in Christ, that person is a new creation, hence somebody is born again. The question at hand now is how does somebody become "in Christ"?

                      Galatians 3:27

                      27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

                      So, from these two verses, one who is baptized into Christ is "in Christ". And one who is "in Christ" is a "new creation". That "new creation" is in somebody who is dead to sin (Rom. 6:6) and walks in the newness of life (Rom. 6:4), hence being born again... which is exactly what Jesus is talking about in John 3:5- being born into a new creation.

                      That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)
                      Now there's the born of the womb part that you are looking for. Everybody is born of the womb. Everybody. And until people become "in Christ" through baptism (Gal. 3:27), they are of the flesh.

                      When a person becomes born again, through baptism (water and Spirit), they are reborn, spiritually. They are a new creature. They are of the Spirit instead of being of the flesh.

                      I assume you believe your "baptism of Jesus" occurred at Pentecost but we see it is the same baptism for "remission of sins".

                      John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the "remission of sins". Mark 1:4 (KJV)

                      Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the "remission of sins", and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)

                      I know this may be hard for YOU to understand but both received the same "remission of sins". The burden is yours to prove otherwise!
                      Not a problem. Here's the proof. Since you think the Acts 2:38 is the same baptism that John the Baptist performed, let's look at an example of each:

                      Example of baptism of John:

                      Matt. 3:11

                      11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

                      It is clear from this verse that one would not recieve the Holy Spirit as a result of his baptism (John's). After all, he said that He who comes after me will baptize with the Holy Spirit. So again, people baptized into this baptism would not recieve the Holy Spirit.

                      Example of baptism of Jesus:

                      Acts 2:38

                      38) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND YOU SHALL RECIEVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

                      In this baptism, people recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit. In John's baptism, they didn't. Two different baptisms. One that saves, one that doesn't. The baptism of Jesus one that saves and is the "one baptism" spoken of in Ephesians 4:5.

                      Now that I have shown that the baptism of Jesus gives one the gift of the Holy Spirt, I will demonstrate again that the baptism of Jesus includes water:

                      Acts 8:35-36:

                      35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
                      36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"


                      This is the baptism of Jesus (verse 35). After all, why would somebody preach Jesus and then baptize into another? The fact that the eunuch asked "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" proves that Phillip instructed baptism with water, or why would the enuch mention water at all? Phillip was instructing the eunuch about baptism, and it inlcudes water.

                      The baptism of Jesus consists of being baptized in water and then that person will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Water and Spirit... [u]just like John 3:5 states. Remember, we cant be born again into a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17) unless we are "in Christ". And we become "in Christ" through baptism (Gal. 3:27).

                      How can one make it to heaven without being born again into a new creation and becoming dead to sin? You can't. The only way to achieve those things is to be "in Christ" ... by being "baptized into Christ." (Gal 3:27)

                      The terminology "baptism of Jesus" that you continue to use is not biblical...
                      Err... what would you like me to call it? The "baptism where one is baptized into Christ" as in Galations 3:27? If someone is "baptized into Christ" it is the baptism of Jesus.

                      This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Gen. 17:10 (KJV)

                      Kevin, pssst, that verse is from the Holy Bible do you believe it applies to you?
                      Before I answer this, I would like to sincerely apologize for my "pssst" remark. It was uncalled for, and I ask for your forgivness. I can see that I didn't edit it out in time. My apologies.

                      The answer to this is, no. We do not have to become circumcised. How do I know this? Because circumcision was done away with in the old law. The book of Galations covers that very thing.

                      Now, if you can show me somewhere that says that disobedient people will have access to the tree of life, then I will withdraw my stress on the importance of obedience. God expected to be obeyed in the Old Testament, and He certainly expects to be obeyed in the New Testament.
                      Praise be to God!

                      Comment


                      • Freak,

                        chapter 15, did the Apostle Paul mention baptism when we reminded the believers of what the Gospel is?
                        Sigh. I have already dealt with this, and you didn't address my points. I already explained why it wasn't mentioned. Read it again, and try addressing it this time please. Here is a copy of it so you don't have to look for it:

                        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Freak,

                        Have you read 1 Cor. 15? If you had you will admit that baptism is not part of the Gospel, it is merely a response to the message of the Gospel.
                        Sorry Freak, but I will admit to no such thing. Let's look at the 1 Cor. 15, verses 1 and 2:

                        1) Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you recieved and in which you stand,
                        2) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.


                        Freak, the first thing I would like to point out is that this is a letter to the brethren of Corinth, not to a group of people who had not been converted/saved. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated. Notice that Paul says in verse 2 " by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you". "Preached", being past-tense, means that the gospel message had already been preached to them. If somebody has already been converted (in which baptism is a part of that process), then of course there would be no mention of that. Baptism is a one time deal, and it allows us as sinful humans to put away our bodies of sin and be reborn in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:3-6).

                        What I'm getting at is that these brethren at Corinth had already been baptized. How do I know that? Because there is a clear example in the Bible of sinners being converted and becoming brethren, it's in Acts chapter 2, the first recorded gospel message (good news) to some jews. Let's examine it.

                        In Acts chapter 2, Peter is preaching to the Jews and going over a brief history with them, leading up to the point of letting them know that they were responsible for crucifying the Son of God. It says that the Jews were "cut to the heart" and asked Peter and the rest of the apostles what they had to do be saved. The very clear response is in verse 38:

                        Acts 2:38

                        38) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

                        Two conditions had to be met before people could recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, thus being saved:

                        1) Repentance
                        2) Baptism

                        This is a command that is given in the imperative mood and was to be obeyed at once. Both repentance and baptism carry equal authority, and must be obeyed in order for the result to happen; the recieving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

                        Notice also verse 41:

                        41) Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

                        This shows that the Jews indeed obeyed the command to be baptized, and as a result, "about three thousand souls were added to them."

                        Notice that this verse does NOT say something like "Then those who glady recieved his word had their souls added to them, and then they were baptized". No, it was talking about people who heard the word and obeyed it, which included the command to be baptized. ONLY then were their souls added to them.

                        Just as the Jews obeyed the command to be baptized (verse 41), so should we. If we don't, then we are not obeying Christ (Matthew 28:19,20), and that WILL cost you your soul. We are only saved if we obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9).

                        Acts chapter 2 is a clear example of how a person who is dead in sin can become saved and join other brethren around the world, just like the brethren of Corinth. The Corinth brethren were baptized because Jesus Christ commanded it in the great commission, which you failed to address, so I'll post it again:

                        Matthew 28:19,20

                        19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

                        20) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


                        Jesus commanded His disciples to go out into world and baptize people and for those people to observe ALL things that Jesus commanded the disciples to do, which INCLUDED baptism. What did Paul go out and preach? THE GOSPEL. And when Paul obeyed Jesus and went out to Corinth "making disciples and baptizing them", those people who believed were baptized (or your telling me that Paul disobeyed Jesus's DIRECT order to do that very thing), and they were saved... because they heard the gospel and they obeyed it!

                        So I ask you again, knowing that baptism is commanded by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, how can you say that baptism isn't necessary?? If we don't obey Jesus, then He is NOT the author of eternal salvation to that person, because Heberws 5:9 states:

                        9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

                        It clearly states that He is the author of salvation to who? All who obey Him. Where do you think that leaves the people that don't obey Him? I'll spell it out just so there's no confusion: HELL.

                        Is baptism necessary for salvation? You bet it is. Obey the word!!
                        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Praise be to God!

                        Comment


                        • Kevin,

                          You are a heretic.

                          Why?

                          Because you seek to add baptism as a requirement to be saved. This is utter blasphemy. The reason I brought up 1 Cor. 15 is twofold.

                          1> You will notice baptism is not mentioned. Because baptism is not part of the Gospel message.

                          2> The Gospel is centered on the Person of Jesus Christ-His death, burial, and resurrection. Paul made it clear he wanted to "remind you of the Gospel" (v.1).

                          As you can see your points are lacking. Paul made it quite clear what the Gospel is. You have rejected the clear teachings of God's Word. This is a shame. It is sad you would depart from the faith that has cost millions of lives (those who have stood for truth in the midst of persecution).

                          Kevin, one receives the Holy Spirit when one believes in Christ. We see this clealry in Ephesians 1 where Paul states: Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit (v. 13). Belief is the only requirement not baptism to receive the Holy Spirit (see Ephesians 4:30).

                          Comment


                          • Freak, you speak of the gospel message? The gospel message is:

                            The things concerning the Kingdom of God, and the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

                            One of those 'things' is baptism - into the name of Christ.
                            After all, that's how we 'put on Christ', according to Paul.

                            I think it's time I brought out the baptism armoury...

                            Comment


                            • Let's start with obedience.

                              Those who refuse to obey the commandments of Christ cannot be saved.

                              Baptism is not a 'work' which we perform in order to 'earn' our salvation. It is not a 'thing' which saves. Nor is it something which proves we are 'already saved'.

                              It is an act of obedience to Christ, a symbol which has a special meaning, and represents our change of spiritual allegiance.

                              Let's look at this concept of obedience...


                              CHRIST REQUIRES OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDMENTS


                              The issue which appears to be causing Freak so much grief, is the belief that disobedience to the commandments of God will prevent someone being saved. I can understand that this Scriptural principle is unwelcome to the flesh, but I would exhort Freak to overcome the natural bias towards disobedience which we all have (see Romans 7), and accept this Scriptural principle for the truth it is.

                              Galatians 5:
                              19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

                              20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

                              21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

                              Care to disagree? I think not...

                              Romans 1:
                              29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

                              30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

                              31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

                              32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

                              Care to disagee? I think not...

                              John 14:
                              15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

                              John 15:
                              10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

                              Care to disagee? I think not...

                              John 15:
                              14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

                              1 John 2:
                              3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

                              4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

                              Care to disagee? I think not...

                              1 John 3:
                              22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

                              1 John 3:
                              23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

                              24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.

                              Care to disagee? I think not...

                              1 John 5:
                              2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

                              3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

                              His commandments, Freak, are not grievous.
                              So why do you have a problem with them?

                              Comment


                              • Baptism - purpose and general notes.

                                WHY ARE WE TO BE BAPTIZED?


                                We are to be baptized as a sign of our repentance, for the remisison (forgiveness), of our sins:

                                Matthew 3:
                                5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
                                6And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

                                Mark 1:
                                4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

                                Luke 3:
                                3And he (John the Baptist) came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

                                Acts 2:
                                38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                                Those who have never transgressed the Law of God have never sinned:

                                Romans 3:
                                19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law...

                                Romans 4:
                                15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

                                Romans 5:
                                13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

                                1 John 3:
                                4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

                                We cannot be under the law of God if we have never known of it.
                                God does not punish those who have never known His law.
                                God does not consider those who have never known His law to be transgressors of it.

                                Infants cannot possibly be transgressors of God's law, simply because they have never known it, never comprehended it, and therefore can never be held accountable to it.


                                WHO IS TO BE BAPTIZED?


                                If an infant is born innocent, when should he be baptized?
                                When he is accountable. What age is that?

                                An infant should be baptized when they are no longer an infant, and have demonstrated an understanding of the meaning of God's law, the meaning of baptism, and the manner of life which is expected of those who have been baptized.

                                An individual is accountable by virtue of their knowledge and understanding of these things, not necessarity their age. Some may come to a knowledge and understanding while they are yet young, some may come to that understanding later.

                                I personally would have reservations about baptising anyone under 13, for the simple fact that responsibility is a concept with which teenagers are still grappling at such an age, and which they tend not to appreciate until they are older.
                                The law of the land reflects this when it restricts certain activities as smoking, drinking, and voting, to age limits of 16, 18, or 21.

                                The New Testament demonstrates the immediate need of baptism when individuals have come to a correct and clear understanding of the gospel (e.g. Acts 8:12, 36-39; 9:18; 10:47; 16:15).
                                Infants are necessarily excluded, as they cannot possibly have a correct and clear understanding of the gospel.


                                HOW ARE WE TO BE BAPTIZED?


                                We are to be baptized by full immersion in water, not by sprinkling, or any other method.
                                Here are a few examples of how the word is used in Scripture. Let's see if they refer to immersion, or sprinkling:

                                John 3:
                                23And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

                                Yes, baptism requires 'much water', at least enough to fully immerse a human body.
                                When you're going to be baptising a number of people, you're going to need a large body of water.

                                Matthew 3:
                                16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:

                                So, he was in the water to begin with. Does this sound like 'sprinkling' to you? Of course not - he was obviously immersed.

                                Mark 1:
                                5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

                                So, they were baptised in the river, not 'sprinkled with a little bit of the river'.
                                There's quite a difference, isn't there?

                                Mark 1:
                                9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
                                10And straightway coming up out of the water...

                                Combines the sense of Matthew 3:16 and Mark 1:5 - Christ was baptized in Jordan, and came up out of the water, having been immersed in it.

                                Acts 8:
                                38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both [/b]into the water[/b], both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
                                39And when they were come up out of the water...

                                Again, we find individuals going down into the water, and then coming up out of the water.

                                Apostolic baptism is obviously the full immersion of an informed adult in water.

                                Comment

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