The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[HopeofGlory]

It is obvious the confusion of sin remission experienced at Pentecost still continues today. Obedience of the flesh is not eternal righteousness in that it demanded endurance as did the law thus being corruptible. The obedience of Christ is our eternal righteousness and not of ourselves and He endures for us. The things of the flesh are corruptible and if they are added to the "obedience of Christ" then salvation is corrupted. We are placed in Christ by the operation of God when we "believe" that is not by our righteousness but His death that our sins are remitted.

----------Things of the flesh------------Things of the Spirit------------
-----------Our Endurance----------------Endurance of Christ----------
-----------Our obedience-----------------Odedience of Christ----------
----------------Our faith---------------------Faith of Christ-----------------
---------------Our works-------------Finished work at the Cross--------
-----------Water baptism------------------Spirit baptism-----------------
-------------Corruptible---------------------Incorruptible------------------
----------------Saved-------------------------Eternal Life-------------------
------------Old Testimony-----------------New Testimony----------------


This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal. 5:16 (KJV)
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal. 5:17 (KJV)

The old was a mere shadow of the new.


Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Cor. 5:16 (KJV)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor. 5:19 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

"Baptism of the Holy Ghost" is not a biblical term but John said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. Some believe the Holy Ghost baptizes which is not true, like the "baptism of John" meaning John baptized. If you believe Jesus will baptize with the Holy Ghost then use the biblical term "baptize with the Holy Ghost“. If we believe the word is inspired by God then let's not destroy the terminology. Baptism of the Holy Ghost is the great heresy of the Pentecostals churches and is nothing more than an emotional experience.

 

[Ian Day]

Craig,

My replies in BOLD

The "promise" has always been the "kingdom" and that it would be set up at His "coming" not "second coming". The two clearly were understood as a single occurrence. The scriptures we are currently discussing are in reference to Peter explaining why the lord had not set up His Kingdom at His coming.

Note: the scoffers' question was "Where is the promise of his coming?" not " why the lord had not set up His Kingdom at His coming."

Peter is not explaining "why the lord had not set up His Kingdom at His coming" but saying that his coming is certain. You seem to be suggesting that the expected kingdom was a time they could look forward to, a time of peace ruled by the Messiah. (I think rather that the thought was, 'we are continuing in wickedness & God hasn't come to judge us.')

Verse 7 reads: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
That is not the kingdom the scoffers were expecting!
If we take that the Apostles expected Christ to restore the kingdom to Israel after his resurrection, were they so justified?
Peter is certainly saying here that it could be a millennium away, (though it might be only one day - Its God's timing), and God will not break his promises. The day of the Lord will come.
John (in Rev. 20) reinforces the possibility of Christ's return being a millennium away. (That's an argument for another thread.)

Peter stresses that the period between the resurrection and Christ's return is for the spread of the Gospel. Time for all to come to repentance.

Abraham, Peter and all those at Pentecost clearly looked for the kingdom to be set up on the earth of which they did not receive and this kingdom is New Jerusalem which is made without hands.

I'm glad you added "this kingdom is New Jerusalem made without hands" because I thought you expected an earthly kingdom, ruled over by Christ sitting on David's throne in old Jerusalem.

If I understand your theology you believe the kingdom they looked for was set up and that it was Spiritual and they understood it so you reject any interpretation of scriptures as to the kingdom being taken from them and given to the Gentiles.

What I reject is a carnal kingdom-of-God-on-earth where Christ rules in person over Jews & Gentiles, believers & unbelievers. The earthly kingdom (which existed under David) & they looked for Christ to re-establish, was taken from them, to be replaced by a Kingdom of Heaven comprising believing Jew & Gentile.

Forgive me if I am wrong and if so will you briefly explain your kingdom theology.

Christ ascended his throne when he ascended:
Acts 2
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

So the Kingdom began at the resurrection & ascension of CHrist.

What did Jesus say:
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
. . . . . .
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So this Kingdom will run for a time until the harvest at the end of the world, and will comprise wheat & tares.
Also read Matt. 24. Peter was writing, and the scoffers were scoffing before "this generation" had passed away. They were toooo early with their scoffing. THe "days of Noah" could mean 120 years, but actually unspecified (24:36). Peter probably had these words in mind as he wrote, for he refers to the flood. THe antediluivians saw Noah building his ark, and heard him preaching righteousness for 120 years. And continued in wickedness, & perished in the flood.

When the Day of the Lord does come, he will raise the dead for glory or judgement, and bring about the New Heaven & New Earth, the home of righteousness. That will be his perfect and everlasting Kingdom, the full realisation of promises & prophecy, and the Everlastign Covenant.

There is a spiritual Kingdom now, and believers are members.
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

The earth is not yet transformed, because Christ is still calling out his people from a sinful world.

Also I would like you to explain to me how those at Pentecost entered into the Spiritual kingdom as related to what you must believe and what operation of God brought them in.
Please bear in mind that if you use any scripture after Pentecost I may reject because of dispensations unless it relates to Pentecost.

I hope that there are no Scriptures you will reject. Rapt has pointed out some awful warnings.

Those who believed Peter's message repented, and believed, and were baptized. They were saved by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, and thus they were translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son. As Jesus said:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Those who believed at Pentecost received everlasting life, through faith in Jesus.

 

[Ian Day]

Peter's errors ?

Peter's errors ?

Craig, you said:

[Craig]
The errors as I said before were not errors at that time but Peter realizes they are errors now because of the NEW testament for remission of sins.

Can you give me a list of "inspired errors" which were true at the time of speaking or writing, but have become errors.

(As opposed to types & shadows, which have their substance in later revelation.)

 

[rapt]

Ian, you are very correct in your understanding that the Kingdom of God is not what premil disps say it is, but your denial of God's commandment to be baptised for the remission of sins through your re-interpretation of what baptism is, as well as your denial that baptism is even necessary for salvation, (which amounts to saying that obedience is unnecessary for salvation) is heretical.

JustAChristian:

The correct method affirms the correctness of the believer.

Ian:

RUBBISH. Does God care whether those who have repented and turned to God with faith in the Christ are then dipped, sprinkled or submerged ?

Did God care whether Naaman the leper dipped in Jordan or one of the rivers in Asseria? "What difference does it make", he thought! But the little maid told him that if the prophet Elijah had commanded him to do some great thing, he would have done it. And when did the rebelious leper finally GET CLEANSED? It wasn't until he OBEYED GOD! As soon as he did, THEN he was healed; not before. Your sins are not remitted before you obey the simple command to be baptised which means immersed. It's that simple. Why harden your heart and retain your sins?

It's a small thing to obey the command to be immersed, but it's GOD'S WAY, and it's the baptism found practiced by any Apostle or disciple in the New Testament, whenever it says they baptised someone. NEVER does such a phrase refer to Holy Spirit baptism.


How DARE anyone call God's commandment 'rubbish'! SHAME!


If we can choose our own definition of baptism, and can disregard the FACT that the Apostles practiced the act of obeying that commandment, baptizing (immersing, never sprinkling or pouring) others in water, then we can choose our own interpretation of all the other scriptures as well. Then ecumenism is O.K., and so also would be the philosophy: "It doesn't matter whatyou believe, as long as you're sincere!" To be consistant with such reasoning, we would have to call even those who are Catholics, Mormons, JWs, and any other cult members our "BRETHREN IN CHRIST", for they have re-interpreted what "in Christ" means, and they are no more right or wrong than we would be in our re-definition of baptism!

Ian:

Water baptism is a sign of true Holy Spirit baptism into CHRIST.
You've got it all backwards.

No, Ian, YOU'VE got it backwards. Water baptism comes BEFORE receiving the Holy Spirit. The believers were water baptized before they manifested the signs of the Holy Spirit:

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not

Acts 2
38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND (then) ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (by the faith that OBEYS!)
41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

(...but you can bet that the rebelious and those that didn't believe Peter blasphemed and rejected his council! Many today who profess to know God also deny their responsibility to obey His commands. Tit 1:16)

Notice carefully: Did Peter tell them to Repent and "be sprinkled"? Did he say Repent and be "poured upon"? Did he say Repent and you'll get the baptism of the Holy Ghost? Or did he say Repent, and be baptised and THEN you'll receive the Holy Ghost?

Doesn't Acts 5:32 say that God gives the Holy Ghost "TO ALL THAT OBEY HIM"? Don't both Acts 2:38 AND Acts 5:32 make it clear that obedience is NECESSARY BEFORE the Holy Spirit is given?

Satan's first lie in the garden was that "ye shall not surely die" if you choose not to obey God's commandment. He promised eternal life and even godhood to the willfully disobedient. Today his ministers, wolves in sheep's clothing, disguised as ministers of righteousness, still teach that very same original lie: "Obedience is not required to be saved; ye shall not surely die if you choose to disobey" (2Cor 11:3,4,13-15). It is today the most effective and seductive DOCTRINE OF DEVILS destroying Christians, and leading them off of the strait and narrow way.

It would have been better for many to never have known the way of righteousness, than after having known it to TURN AWAY from the holy commandment that was delivered unto them. (2Pet 2:19-22) Like a dog returns to his vomit, and like a sow returning to her wallowing in the mire, so do these who refuse to TAKE HEED lest they fall, who suppose they stand. Scripture clearly warns brethren to take heed lest there be in any of you an EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, in DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD through hardening of the heart because of the deceitfulness of sin (Heb 3:6-19; 4:1,2)

It becomes clear that rebellion is always connected to the once-saved-always-saved heresy. "Ye shall not surely die" if you disobey God's commandment is still alive and deceiving. It is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.

 

[HopeofGlory]

It is evident that the blood of Christ "for" the remission of sins is the power of God unto salvation but to those who believe otherwise it condemns.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Can you give me a list of "inspired errors" which were true at the time of speaking or writing, but have become errors.

See the above list of errors which "men" inspired as things of the flesh.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Ian,

You said:
You seem to be suggesting that the expected kingdom was a time they could look forward to, a time of peace ruled by the Messiah. (I think rather that the thought was, 'we are continuing in wickedness & God hasn't come to judge us.')

Reply:
We are in the kingdom Spiritually because we are in Christ and we all look forward to the spiritual kingdom literally as did the believers at Pentecost.

You said:
If we take that the Apostles expected Christ to restore the kingdom to Israel after his resurrection, were they so justified?

Reply:
To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them "forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom" of God: Acts 1:3 (KJV)

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. Acts 1:4 (KJV)

Clearly what they had heard of Him for forty days was the "promise" of the kingdom and that they should go to Jerusalem and wait for that promise.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)

They believed they would receive the kingdom not many days hence and it would be evident in receiving the Holy Ghost.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Acts 1:6 (KJV)

They expected to receive it "at that time" in Jerusalem.

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Acts 1:7 (KJV)
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8 (KJV)
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9 (KJV)

They were not to know the time but they would receive "power"
when the holy Ghost came on them. They understood the receiving of the Holy Ghost as the things of the kingdom.

When the Holy Ghost fell at Pentecost Peter recalls the prophecy of Joel wherein is the destruction, salvation, and kingdom blessings.

You:
Peter stresses that the period between the resurrection and Christ's return is for the spread of the Gospel. Time for all to come to repentance.

Reply:
Yes he does and he has learned much since his Pentecostal experience.

You said:
I'm glad you added "this kingdom is New Jerusalem made without hands" because I thought you expected an earthly kingdom, ruled over by Christ sitting on David's throne in old Jerusalem.

Reply:
I am glad you are glad!

You said:
What I reject is a carnal kingdom-of-God-on-earth where Christ rules in person over Jews & Gentiles, believers & unbelievers. The earthly kingdom (which existed under David) & they looked for Christ to re-establish, was taken from them, to be replaced by a Kingdom of Heaven comprising believing Jew & Gentile.

Reply:
Where we differ is you believe the spiritual kingdom was received at Pentecost but I believe the kingdom taken from them was always intended by God to be Spiritual and never carnal. The prophecy of the kingdom taken from them is the Spiritual kingdom which they did not receive at Pentecost.


You said:
So the Kingdom began at the resurrection & ascension of CHrist.

reply:
I agree but they at Pentecost expected to receive it on the earth and it was taken from them and now had to be received spiritually by being in Christ through the "new" testament.

You said:
There is a spiritual Kingdom now, and believers are members.
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

The earth is not yet transformed, because Christ is still calling out his people from a sinful world.

Reply:
Amen

You said:
I hope that there are no Scriptures you will reject. Rapt has pointed out some awful warnings.

Reply:
I said: Also I would like you to explain to me how those at Pentecost entered into the Spiritual kingdom as related to what you must believe and what operation of God brought them in.
Please bear in mind that if you use any scripture after Pentecost I may reject because of dispensations unless it relates to Pentecost.

It is clear I meant I may reject the scripture being applied to those at Pentecost. It is evident God's word is progressively revealed and must be rightly divided based on the testimony given at that time. I reject the process of wrong division and I will never reject God's word!

You said:
Those who believed Peter's message repented, and believed, and were baptized. They were saved by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, and thus they were translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son. As Jesus said:

Reply:
The kingdom was taken and given to the Gentiles! Those entering will have to receive the "new" testament for remission of sins which was not preached at Pentecost. We can not take scripture written after many revelations and say it was believed before it was revealed. It does not make sense to do such a thing!

You said:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Reply:
Yes, must believe "on Him" as the giver of everlasting life through the "new" testament in His shed blood "for" remission. Again, this message was not preached at Pentecost but they clearly had to "obey" in water baptism "for" remission and that is NOT the "new" testament!

You said:
Those who believed at Pentecost received everlasting life, through faith in Jesus.

Reply:
No one in the old testament received everlasting life until they believed the "new" testament that Christ gave and it was not fully understood until Paul preached it.

In Christ
Craig

 

[agape]

Ian, you said:

Agape, please note:

What is recorded in Acts is the way Christ's command to the Apostles was OBEYED, not disorted, or misunderstood.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Therefore Peter preached the death & resurrection of Christ, and his ascension to the throne of David.

etc., etc., etc.,


You said: What a wonderful God we serve ! Don't distort his gracious Word.

What is the point you are making or addressing to me. It would be nice if you could be more specific in your statements...because I haven't a clue.

God bless you,
Agape

 

[Ian Day]

Agape,

You were trying to prove that water baptism was totally replaced by baptism into CHrist at pentecost:

THis seemed to me to be trying to prove the apostles were mistaken in their command to repent & be baptised, & their continuing practice of water baptism.

[agape p.17]
For John truly baptized with water; but {CONTRAST] ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

What part of "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST... PNEUMA HAGION....GIFT OF HOLY SPIRIT...THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER...POWER FROM ON HIGH" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

With the coming of the greater (holy spirit) the lesser (water) came to an end (Praise God). This replacement was initiated on Pentecost. On Pentecost the replacement first applied.

Galatians 3:27, 28:
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Being baptized into the body of Christ does not mean baptized with the old physical element of water, but with the new spiritual element of holy spirit. Baptized into Christ can only be accomplished with holy spirit. God in Christ in us. If we need water to do this, then Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough as our complete Lord and Savior. I doubt very much he needs the aid of water when his blood TOTALLY cleansed us from our sins.

You also tried to prove the following from the writings of the ECF:

[agape]
There is evidence from the early writings of the Church fathers who quoted this verse that the phrase "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" was not in the original text.

I inclded you in a general posting, because you say that water baptism was not in Christ's command to the Apostles.

Its many pages ago now.

 

[agape]

Ian Day

You said:

THis seemed to me to be trying to prove the apostles were mistaken in their command to repent & be baptised, & their continuing practice of water baptism.

They were not mistaken in their command to repent and be baptized. They taught the Lord Jesus Christ and remissions of sin through him. Those who believed and repented were baptized with holy spirit. God does the baptizing. He does the outpouring of the gift of holy spirit.

It didn't seem to be saying, Ian...it was exactly stating that water baptism went out with being baptized in the spirit. The Apostles followed exactly what was told them by Jesus Christ.

Again:

For John truly baptized with water; but {CONTRAST] ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

What part of "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST... PNEUMA HAGION....GIFT OF HOLY SPIRIT...THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER...POWER FROM ON HIGH" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

With the coming of the greater (holy spirit) the lesser (water) came to an end (Praise God). This replacement was initiated on Pentecost. On Pentecost the replacement first applied.

Galatians 3:27, 28:
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Being baptized into the body of Christ does not mean baptized with the old physical element of water, but with the new spiritual element of holy spirit. Baptized into Christ can only be accomplished with holy spirit. God in Christ in us. If we need water to do this, then Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough as our complete Lord and Savior. I doubt very much he needs the aid of water when his blood TOTALLY cleansed us from our sins.

God bless you,
Agape

 

[HopeofGlory]

Hello agape

Being baptized into the body of Christ does not mean baptized with the old physical element of water, but with the new spiritual element of holy spirit. Baptized into Christ can only be accomplished with holy spirit. God in Christ in us. If we need water to do this, then Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough as our complete Lord and Savior. I doubt very much he needs the aid of water when his blood TOTALLY cleansed us from our sins.

Are you saying they were not baptized in water at Pentecost?

You stated they were baptized "into Christ" but you have not provided proof text. Baptized in the "name of" does not mean baptized "into the body". Also do you have reference where anyone at Pentecost was baptized "with the Holy Ghost"?


Thanks,
Craig

 

[agape]

Hello HopeOfGlory,

I quoted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being baptized into the body of Christ does not mean baptized with the old physical element of water, but with the new spiritual element of holy spirit. Baptized into Christ can only be accomplished with holy spirit. God in Christ in us. If we need water to do this, then Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough as our complete Lord and Savior. I doubt very much he needs the aid of water when his blood TOTALLY cleansed us from our sins.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your question:
Are you saying they were not baptized in water at Pentecost?

Yes...I am saying they were NOT water baptized. Here are the events which took place on the day of Pentecost according to Acts 2:1

The day of Pentecost fully came...they [the twelve apostles] were all with one accord in one place in the temple.

According to Acts 2:2:
Suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing might wind...

Heaven is used in the Bible meaning any place above earth. The sound "as of a rushing mighty wind" therefore came from above the earth. They heard wind, blowing, as of a hard breathing for which it is also used. John 20:22: "And when he [Jesus Christ] had said this, he breathed on them [he breathed in], and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost [pneuma hagion]. Jesus was telling or instructing them what to do when the time came (the day of Pentecost); they were to breathe in heavily at that proper moment.

Acts 2:2:
...and it [this heavy breathing by the apostles] filled all the house [the Temple] where they were sitting.

According to Acts 2:3:

There appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

It doesn't say that the cloven tongues were fire, but they appeared like fire. "Cloven tongues like as of fire" is the phenomenon which occurred on the day of Pentecost.

The word "sat" is expecially interesting. In the Word of God, on a number of occasions when something was finished, totally completed, the word "sat" is used. For instance, after the six days of creation Genesis 2:2 says, "and he [God] rested [sat]." After Jesus Christ had given his life, was raised again, and ascended into heaven, he "sat down at the right hand of God," as recorded in Hebrews 10:12. When man's redemption was completed, Jesus Christ "sat down."

On the day of Pentecost the gift from the Holy Spirit was "fully come." That is why Acts 2:3 states "and it sat upon each of them." The outpouring was complete..it was in full. Since then, God has never given more because He gave the complete package on the day of Pentecost. Every person today who so desires can be born again and filled with the gift from the Holy Spirit because it is here.

There was absolutely no water involved on the day of Pentecost. Our complete and full salvation culminated in the baptism which involved receiving the gift of holy spirit....a new nature....incorruptible seed.

You stated they were baptized "into Christ" but you have not provided proof text. Baptized in the "name of" does not mean baptized "into the body". Also do you have reference where anyone at Pentecost was baptized "with the Holy Ghost"?

To be baptized "into Christ" can only mean baptized in the spirit. If water baptism could accomplish this then why the day of Pentecost. What occurred that day specifically describes the receiving of "holy spirit"...NOT water. When we receive holy spirit, Christ comes in us, spiritually. To be baptized into Christ is to be spiritually immersed into his righteousness, justification, sanctification, and redemption. God's spirit in Christ is now in us. Christ "in" us the hope of glory. In order to be into or in Christ, Christ needs to be in us by way of holy spirit.

The original outpouring of God's gift of holy spirit was just that...holy spirit.

I hope this answers your questions...at least some of them.

God bless you,
Agape

 

[HopeofGlory]

agape

You said:
Yes...I am saying they were NOT water baptized. Here are the events which took place on the day of Pentecost according to Acts 2:1

Reply:
Am I correct to say that you believe the apostles understood Jesus in Acts 1:5 so they discontinued water baptism for the greater Spirit baptism?

Also do you believe the "gift" is Spirit baptism or do you believe the gift is received after Spirit baptism?

Thanks in advance for you time!

Craig

 

[agape]

Hello HopeOfGlory,

Am I correct to say that you believe the apostles understood Jesus in Acts 1:5 so they discontinued water baptism for the greater Spirit baptism?

It is also important to read and understand verse 4 of Acts 1:

"And, being assembled together with them, [Jesus] commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

The time of this verse is the day of the ascension, which was forty days from the resurrection when Jesus was gathered together with his apostles and was giving them last-minute instructions before his departure. He instructed them, as a matter of fact he commanded them, that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but were to wait for the promise of the Father.

Verse 5:
For John truly baptized with water, but [sets the contrast] ye shall be baptized with [the Greek word is "en," the equivalent of "in"] the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The apostles understood that they were to wait for the promise, which was that they shall be baptized with or in the Holy Ghost....They understood that John truly baptized with water...but...they were to be baptized in the holy spirit. The promise of the Father (Acts 1:4) equals to be baptized with holy spirit (Acts 1:5) equals endued with power from on high {spiritual, not physical such as with water} (Luke 24:49).

Also do you believe the "gift" is Spirit baptism or do you believe the gift is received after Spirit baptism?

Yes, I believe the "gift" is spirit baptism

Mark 1:8:
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

"Repent...."

Repent does not mean to confess our sins, but to confess the savior from sin, our Lord, Jesus Christ. We change lords so to speak. Jesus Christ is our lord...he is our savior.

"...for the remission of sins..."

According to Lexicon for Strong's Number 1519,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1002200431.html

1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

++++
"For" (as used in Acts 2:38 "for the forgiveness...") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery", "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.

The "original" outpouring of the holy spirit took place on the day of Pentecost to the twelve apostles. The gift of holy spirit had already been given to them. There was no more need for another outpouring of the gift. When we repent (confess the Lord Jesus Christ, the savior from sin), we are baptized (in the spirit) at that very moment. We don't sit and wait for another outpouring of the gift of holy spirit. It already was given and the apostles were the first to receive it. They not only received holy spirit, but they received it into manifestation when they spoke in tongues.

It is interesting to note the different usages for the word "receive."

"Receive" in the Greek is the word "dechomai" which simply means to receive something. For example, a man receives an electric shaver as a gift. He received it. He holds it in his hands.

However, there is another Greek word for "receive" which is "lambano" meaning to receive into manifestation. For example: the man who received the electric razor as a gift has it in his possession. However, when he uses or utilizes the shaver he then receives it into manifestation.

According to Acts 19:2,3:
...Have ye received [lambano] the Holy Ghost since [when] ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

"...since when ye believed...." Paul knew they believed in the name of Jesus Christ, but he had not heard that they "lambano" or received it into manifestation.

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism [water]

They were saved and born again of God's spirit; however, they did not receive the holy spirit into manifestation, which is speaking in tongues. (Note, speaking in tongues is just one of the nine manifestations of the gift of holy spirit of which all can be operated by the born-again believer).

Water baptism did occur because Apollos had not been fully instructed. He only knew of John's baptism by water.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what fully occurred on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:38
....and ye shall (absolute tense...absolutely) receive (lambano...receive into manifestation) the gift of holy spirit. The evidence that they received the gift of holy spirit was that they spoke in tongues.

Therefore, according to Acts 2:38, Peter told them (those who were present and heard and seen the manifestation of speaking in tongues), to repent, (Romans 10:9 and 10) and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for (because) of the remission of sins when they repented) ...and they shall absolutely receive (into manifestation) the gift of the Holy Ghost (pneuma hagion - holy spirit). Please read the whole chapter of Acts 2 and look at the context.

In the name of Jesus Christ one receives remission of sins and is baptized in the spirit. Peter did not do the actual baptizing, he taught the Word and God did it in Christ and those who believed received it (by the freedom of their own will) into manifestation ("they" spoke in tongues).

This is the best I can do to explain that the gift of holy spirit is received at the very moment we confess the savior from sin, our Lord Jesus Christ.

I know I am saved by faith (believing Romans 10:9 and 10)...however, I have the evidence of God's gift within me because I speak in tongues.

God bless you,
Agape

 

[Freak]

One will notice when you go through Ephesians Paul makes it clear that the only requirement to receive the Holy Spirit is simply "faith" not water baptism. For example look at Ephesians 1:13-14, 4:30.

 

[rapt]

Ian:

Those who believed Peter's message repented, and believed, and were baptized . They were saved by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, and thus they were translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son. As Jesus said

Craig's reply:
The kingdom was taken and given to the Gentiles! Those entering will have to receive the "new" testament for remission of sins which was not preached at Pentecost.

When and why was God's spiritual kingdom ever taken from the baptised believers in Jesus Christ of Pentacost? Please show the scriptures that testify that this ever happened.

Jesus told UNBELIEVING Jews that the kingdom would be taken from THEM and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof. But those BELIEVERS at Pentacost DID bring forth the fruits of the kingdom of God, for that fruit is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST! They were more devoted to obeying the truth than most churches today! They sold their possessions and parted them to those that had need. They lived together and shared everything, and walked in the FEAR OF GOD! Has there been a "falling away" from such a devotion and fear of God unto many "other gospels" , worldly practices, sin, license, and hypocrisy, or has the modern church advanced into greater light and a closer walk with God than the first church ever had?


Judge for yourself.


Craig, by claiming that they at Pentacost did not hear the New Testament gospel, to be consistant, must conclude that those thousands at Pentacost, who were believers in the death, burial, resurrection, lordship, and name of Jesus Christ, who were obediently immersed according to Christ's commandment, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, either LOST their salvation, or had need to be REBAPTIZED! He still DENIES that Peter was preaching the New Testament, even though Acts 2 (and other chapters) CLEARLY show that Peter preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and faith in His name FOR the remission of sins. (Agape has explained "for" in a wise way). Baptism was to signify that faith, and that obedience to the commandment of Christ (which IS faith, for faith alone without obedience is dead) is how they were to access remission of sins which is by faith in His blood. To deny that Peter's gospel includes this truth is to deny the gospel of Christ, for they are synonomous.


So where does scripture say that those beleivers at Pentacost ever lost their salvation, or had need to be baptised into Christ again under yet another covenant? Please provide such a reference that clearly shows that Peter was preaching a gospel that ever passed away because of a change of "dispensation" and covenant AFTER Pentacost.


Search dilligently; I promise not to hold my breath.

Yes, (who?) must believe "on Him" as the giver of everlasting life through the "new" testament in His shed blood "for" remission. Again, this message was not preached at Pentecost but they clearly had to "obey" in water baptism "for" remission and that is NOT the "new" testament!

So Craig clearly shows here his aversion to the idea that the gospel of Christ demands any OBEDIENCE. He obviously believes in a faith that is without any life or life-giving value: dead faith (James 2:14-26)


Tell us, Craig, WHERE did Peter get the gospel he preached at Pentacost? Did he just dream it up (like Darby dreamed up dispensationalism only recently)?


Did Jesus teach a false gospel to Peter or to any other Apostle, or is it you that believes "another gospel" (Gal 1:8,9)?


Did not Paul say that Paul's gospel IS the gospel of Christ? (Ro 1:16) Why do you (in great error) suppose that Paul's gospel never required any obedience? Did Paul preach a gospel of licence to sin then? Any gospel that says to "believe" in Christ, yet claims that one is not required to OBEY Christ's teaching can be nothing less.


Many, Peter said, twist Paul's words to their own destruction and the destruction of them that hear them. It is just those who suppose that Paul preached license for sin (the "obedience is unnecessary for salvation" heresy) that do so. Paul said God forbids that we continue in sin that grace may abound (Rom 6:1,2), and that it's deceit to think that the unrighteous will inherit the Kingdom of God (1Cor 6:9,10) if they ever "once truly believed".

What unrighteousness did they do who were baptised at Pentacost to lose the gift of the Holy Spirit which was by FAITH IN JESUS' name? How were they in any "error" when their obedience was to the gospel of Christ? It is those who DENY that the souls saved at Pentacost ever were saved that are in error. They are in great error to say that the ONE AND ONLY gospel message was not preached and received at Pentacost.


You are so confused, Craig (Hope of Glory). Everyone reading your posts or listening to you should be aware that you are fighting against God, since you deny the Word of God. Those at Pentacost received the correct gospel, the correct baptism, and they were IN CHIRST when it was over, in faith in the NEW TESTAMENT.

Peter had preached the SAME GOSPEL later than Pentacost too, both to Jews AND to the gentiles:

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: )
37
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40
Him God raised up the third day
42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

THe gentiles heard the SAME GOSPEL after Pentacost that those in Jerusalem had heard!!

Paul said the SAME GOSPEL that went to Jew first went ALSO to the gentile:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Peter preached Christ at Pentacost, and even baptised in Christ's name. They DID receive both remission of sins through faith in Christ's name and the gift of the Holy Ghost. We don't read where everyone that was baptised spake in tongues or prophecied, but we do read about the manifestationS of the gift in 1Cor 12-14, which were never "done away".

Tongues, being the very LEAST of the manifestations, is not practiced today in most churches in the proper order which was commanded by the Apostle Paul. Those who speak in tongues are commanded to keep silence in the churches when there is no interpreter. They are to "speak to themselves and to God" (1Cor 14). Also, they usually all speak in tongues at once, but Paul forbade that, calling it "confusion" which God did not author. He lumped such confusion together with the error of allowing women to speak in the church, and said "if any man thinks himself to a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD".

Just because there are many who abuse the manifestations today is no sign that the Holy Ghost doesn't still give them to people, any more than just because there are many false prophets teaching accursed gospels today does not mean that the true gospel (the one Peter preached at Pentacost) is done away. Paul preached the same Jesus Christ that Peter preached.

Last night, a "fundamental independant Baptist" preacher and his wife came to visit my daughter's house, and I was there as he proclaimed himself and his church to be "bible believing". But he said that Peter did not preach "the gospel" at Pentacost. When he told us all that he believed in "premilenial dispensationalism", I said that is why he doesn't believe the bible as he claims, but instead DENIES it.

...and my daughter and her husband scratched another heretical church off of their list...

...the last one was the Church of Christ International (Boston Movement)

...and the list goes on....

 

[HopeofGlory]

Rapt,


You quoted Ian:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those who believed Peter's message repented, and believed, and were baptized . They were saved by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, and thus they were translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son. As Jesus said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply:

Ian also had this to say:

It seems very clear that the title of this thread "The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!" is completely vindicated. And has been a heresy for almost as long as there has been a church.

The confusion is clear when the word is not rightly divided! At Pentecost you believe they had to be water baptized in order to be saved and Ian believes it was only a sign. Ian is right in that it was a sign of Spirit baptism to come but He does not understand that that sign was the effectual baptism for remission of sins at Pentecost of which you believe. Even though it "was" effectual it was also corruptible in the sense that it was not eternal remission and required endurance and obedience to the end. This effectual sign is to be done away with or those like you rapt will accept it as the true baptism. Those at Pentecost believed their obedience in water baptism remitted their sins not the blood of Christ thus they did not receive eternal remission. Ian rejects water baptism as the agent that saves but it clearly did at Pentecost.

In your acceptance of the corruptible message "for" remission you have to believe in "works" for salvation even though you want admit it. This is proved in your denial of security in eternal life by saying we can lose it. Your confusion is understandable because you do not believe the blood of Christ gives eternal remission. The blood of Christ when applied is not corruptible and does not fade away.

Before the cross salvation was not eternal. Christ died to deliver the eternal message of His blood in the NEW testament. This new testament replaced the old testament "for" remission. If the old is not done away it will corrupt the new.

You rapt choose to condemn those ( Me and Ian) of us who accept the new by saying if your not baptized your not saved. I am baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ and there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. John 6:64 (KJV)


Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)
And all things are of God.... 2 Cor. 5:18 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Rapt,

You asked:
When and why was God's spiritual kingdom ever taken from the baptised believers in Jesus Christ of Pentacost? Please show the scriptures that testify that this ever happened.

Reply:
The water baptized believers believed in the OLD testament message "for" remission of sins that had it's inception with John the Baptism before the New testament of His shed blood "for" remission was given. The simplicity of this truth is clearly revealed.
The kingdom was taken because of their unbelief.


Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Rom. 11:19 (KJV)
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom. 11:20 (KJV)

Branches are believers not unbelievers! They were to continue to abide until all things had be come "new". It is the new that they did not believe. The new message became a Gentile message...
Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles... Isa. 60:16 (KJV)

Israel was God's chosen to deliver this "new" message to the world but because of unbelief it went to the Gentiles.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Pet. 2:2 (KJV)

You said:
Jesus told UNBELIEVING Jews that the kingdom would be taken from THEM and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof. But those BELIEVERS at Pentecost DID bring forth the fruits of the kingdom of God, for that fruit is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST!

Reply:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom. 11:27 (KJV)
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. Rom. 11:28 (KJV)
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom. 11:29 (KJV)
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Rom. 11:30 (KJV)
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. Rom. 11:31 (KJV)
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Rom. 11:32 (KJV)
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Rom. 11:33 (KJV)

The elect that became believers through repentance were enemies of the gospel of Christ but He will graft them in AGAIN.

You said:
They were more devoted to obeying the truth than most churches today! They sold their possessions and parted them to those that had need. They lived together and shared everything, and walked in the FEAR OF GOD! Has there been a "falling away" from such a devotion and fear of God unto many "other gospels" , worldly practices, sin, license, and hypocrisy, or has the modern church advanced into greater light and a closer walk with God than the first church ever had?

Reply:
I agree completely about their devotion and that the churches of today have fallen away but the old testimony has passed and "all things" are of God. Our relationship is no longer of fear and our devotion is out of love for Christ in that "all things" are in Him by His death "for" remission of sins. The modern church is a building made with hands and has many members but the true church are earthen vessels in which Christ lives and are not of this "modern" world.

In Christ
Craig

 

[Ian Day]

The confusion is clear !

The confusion is clear !

Craig,

[Joke] Being quoted favourably by you is a bit like being offered the biggest snail at a French dinner

Especially when you then say I have completely misunderstood what you assert as "truth."

[Joke] You do write Scriptural truth, but finding it in your postings is like sorting sugar & salt with forceps

I hope you were joking when you wrote the words I have used to head this posting

You make an assertion & quote Scripture. Rarely does your assertion match the Scripture.

[Rapt,]
When and why was God's spiritual kingdom ever taken from the baptised believers in Jesus Christ of Pentacost? Please show the scriptures that testify that this ever happened.

Reply: [Craig]
The water baptized believers believed in the OLD testament message "for" remission of sins that had it's inception with John the Baptism before the New testament of His shed blood "for" remission was given. The simplicity of this truth is clearly revealed.
The kingdom was taken because of their unbelief.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Rom. 11:19 (KJV)
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom. 11:20 (KJV)

Branches are believers not unbelievers! They were to continue to abide until all things had be come "new". It is the new that they did not believe. The new message became a Gentile message...
Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles... Isa. 60:16 (KJV)

You have never proved that water baptism was an Old Covenant ritual for the remission of sins. Your main argument seems to be that it was initiated before the cross. When Hebrews was discussion Old Covenant "various baptisms" he said:
Hebr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

You have never disproved that John's baptism was not a sign of what it signified:
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
...............
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

THe Old Covenant baptism with sprinkled blood was for the remission of sins, as was John's baptism with water, as was the Pentecostal baptism with water. All signify the sprinkled blood of Christ, and Pentecostal baptism onwards signifies baptism by the Holy Spirit into Christ. None saved without true, saving repentance.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

No-one was ever saved by the Old Covenant sacrifices, let alone a non-sacrificial water baptism. Salvation is only and ever by the sacrifice of Christ.

Hebr 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Bear in mind when you 'cast away' the Pentecost believers, who repented, were baptised in water, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and showed their faith by their godly living .... That these believers are the subject of Acts 2:41 - 13:3.

THere is not the slightest suggestion in Scripture that they were unbelievers as you assert.