The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

Hello Agape

I agree that the Holy Spiritual baptism is the main baptism, and the water baptism is only a symbol done in our walk following Jesus, but it is not salvation like Kevin thinks , and believes.
We should get water baptized, but it has nothing to do with salvation, but it does please god to see us get baptized, and be obedient to our christian walk, and life.
I am sorry to see so many people take the bible out of context to make water baptism a part of salvation and try to cancel out grace by doing baptimal works, and commands that we can`t keep them all.

I think we have the same teaching on grace and love of God so that put us in unity and one body Agape.

Your doing a good job trying to tell Kevin the truth about baptism and the good new, just keep gentle, and humble , and keep praying that God give him a open heart for the gospel and anointed teachings.

God Bless you:up:

 

[agape]

Originally posted by c.moore
Hello Agape

We should get water baptized, but it has nothing to do with salvation, but it does please god to see us get baptized, and be obedient to our christian walk, and life.

c.moore, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say we "should" get baptized, but it has nothing to do with salvation. If it has nothing to do with salvation, then please tell me why WE SHOULD get water baptized.

Where does it say that it pleases God and that it has anything to do with being obedient in our Christian walk. You seem to be sitting on both sides of the fence?

 

[Francisco]

c.moore:

I agree that the Holy Spiritual baptism is the main baptism, and the water baptism is only a symbol done in our walk following Jesus, but it is not salvation like Kevin thinks , and believes.
We should get water baptized, but it has nothing to do with salvation, but it does please god to see us get baptized, and be obedient to our christian walk, and life.

I would also challenge you, c.moore, to show why anyone should accept your view of baptism, which seems to have developed fully in the 1500's, over the early fathers I cited in my previous quotation. Since most of the authors I quoted were obviously much closer to the apostolic period than the authors of your view on baptism, why should your unhistorical view prevail? To make sure I'm understood correctly, what I mean by unhistorical is the early church did not hold your 'symbolic' view of baptism, as evidenced by the citations I posted previously.

I am sorry to see so many people take the bible out of context to make water baptism a part of salvation

I am sorry to see you take the bible out of context and make water baptism NOT a part of salvation. Until just a few hundred years ago, your view would have been considered heretical by all Christians. Now it is considered to be heretical by 75% of all Christians. Why are you so arrogant as to believe that SOME of the reformers suddenly discovered some new truth about the gospel that had not been preached for the first 1500 years of Christianity?

and try to cancel out grace by doing baptimal works, and commands that we can`t keep them all.

You obviously misunderstand what the sacrament of baptism is about, and probably what 'sacraments' are and mean.

We believe during the sacrament of baptism the water confers grace, it does not replace it. This 'conferring of grace' is not unlike what Jesus did with the blind man he cured by making mud with his spittle and rubbing it on the mans eyes. The man had to wash in the pool of Siloam before his sight returned. Did the water cure the man's site? NO. It was the grace of God conferred on the man through the water and the man's faith that healed him.

I think we have the same teaching on grace and love of God so that put us in unity and one body Agape.

I should hope that belief in Jesus Christ as Our Blessed Lord and Savior is what put's ALL Christians, Catholic and Protestant, in one body.

Your doing a good job trying to tell Kevin the truth about baptism and the good new, just keep gentle, and humble , and keep praying that God give him a open heart for the gospel and anointed teachings.

You are correct to recommend gentleness and humility, but agape should learn the truth before teaching others.

c.moore, I hope nothing of what I said above sounds mean-spirited; it's not intended that way at all. I believe you are a sincere Christian standing for what you believe. But you must consider this, when you read scripture, you already have some preconception of what that scripture means. You then read into it what you think it means, and that keeps you from seeing the truth. It takes a particular amount of eisegesis to read into 'you must be born of water and the Spirit' to mean anything other than water baptism. I've heard some explain the meaning of 'water' in this context to mean all kinds of things; the Word of God, the water of natural birth, etc... None of these other 'meanings' make any sense in the context of Jesus' words.

Try to read all the scriptures concerning water baptism without your preconceptions and see if your interpretation changes.

Pax Christi,

Francisco

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Francisco
agape,

As an outsider just reading this thread for the first time, you appear to be the less educated one here. Not only do you continuously use poor grammar ('God is more smarter than you are' is grammatically redundant), which is a reflection of how you must speak, you are being very condescending which makes you look even more uneducated, and obnoxiously arrogant.

LOL...poor grammar because I put more in...what a stupid point to bring up. This shows your immature mentality. Say whatever you want cuz it doesn't bother me in the least.

The rest of your post makes no impression on me whatsoever. I know what the Word declares and you and the rest of the guys that you listed don't bother me in the least. The Word of God is my only standard and reference for practice and truth and anyone who contradicts God and His Son Jesus Christ who said; "John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...." can go take a hyke. Go get educated with the rest of them cuz you don't have a clue.

 

[Freak]

It's amazing that the heretics still don't get it.

Jesus is the Savior not water.

Pretty simple...

 

[Francisco]

LOL...poor grammar because I put more in...what a stupid point to bring up. This shows your immature mentality. Say whatever you want cuz it doesn't bother me in the least.

While you attack Kevin about his 'education', you look like a fool when you post your message written in ebonics. LOL!

The rest of your post makes no impression on me whatsoever. I know what the Word declares and you and the rest of the guys that you listed don't bother me in the least.

I know my post makes no impression on you. A brick dropping on your head wouldn't make an impression on YOU. The post was for the edification of the other readers, the ones who have sense enough to know 'the rest of the guys' I listed were exponentially more qualified to interpret and understand scripture than a self-proclaimed authority like yourself.

The Word of God is my only standard and reference for practice and truth and anyone who contradicts God and His Son Jesus Christ who said; "John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...." can go take a hyke.

The Word of God is the same 'standard' claimed by the thousands of Protestant sects who claim only THEY have the correct interpretation. How do we know your interpretation is the correct one?

Go get educated with the rest of them cuz you don't have a clue.

I needs to be gitsin me one of dem der gradeeit degrees in ebonics from Bubba Umavursitee, likes you agape, cuz I wanna has a IQ two points hire dan a mater plant, just likes you agape!

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

First, you should take the time to understand the definition of 'heretic.' A 'heretic' is a baptized Catholic who professes beliefs contrary to that of the Catholic Church. A heretic is NOT someone who disagrees with your babbling.

Second, we all agree Jesus is the Savior. But why do you believe the All-Powerful God cannot confer grace through a physical substance? If it wasn't by the grace of God that Jesus cured the blind man with the mud, and then the washing in the pool of Siloam, what was it? Jesus could have just said 'Be cured', and the blind man would have regained his sight. Do you know why Jesus chose to rub mud on the man's eyes instead?

 

[Kevin]

Good job!

Good job!

Francisco,

Excellent posts. It's just too easy to expose their lies, isn't it?

 

[Freak]

Heretics!

Heretics!

Fran,

It is apparent you lack in your understanding of Biblical Christianity as you have demonstrated in your last few posts.

Romans 5:1 tells us that: Having been justified by faith we can have peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Justification is by faith in a person (Jesus) not by water. Was Paul mistaken, Fran? I don't think so. By the way, God is not very pleased with how you violently twist the Scriptures.

Kevin,

See above!

 

[JustAChristian]

Romans 7:17

Romans 7:17

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Kevin,

Roms 7:17

In Christ
Craig

Craig,
Since Kevin is having quite a discussion with c.moore, I thought I would respond on this one...

Rom. 7:17 -- Now then [as it is]it is no longer I who do it [the ture inner person desiring to do right]but sin that dwells [lives] in me.


Rom.7:18 -- For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) [this is where sin makes it attach] nothing good dwells in me: [sin is committed by yielding to the flesh] for to will is present with me, [there is that longing to do right]but how to perform what is good I do not find [I do not carry out ; the flesh desires otherwise].

Rom. 7:19 -- For the good that I want to do, [that which I know should be done] I do not do; but the evil I do not want to do this i do [keep on doing]

Rom. 7:20 -- Now if I do what I do not want to do, [and he does. vs. 19]it is no longer I wo do it, but sin that dwells ][lives]in me under the law, all sinned, and were left without forgiveness thus the need for the Savior, vss, 24,25, after the law, the faithful Christian struggles daily to give all to Jesus, but the weakness of the flesh is often involved in sin. Likewise needs the Savior -- 1 John 1:7-10].

JustAChristian

 

[Francisco]

Freak:

Fran,

It is apparent you lack in your understanding of Biblical Christianity as you have demonstrated in your last few posts.

Romans 5:1 tells us that: Having been justified by faith we can have peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Freak, I'm afraid it is you who lack understanding of the scriptures. In Romans 5:1, Paul tells us we have peace, not that we can have peace. And what exactly does that mean?

The peace Paul speaks of is our reconciliation with God, through the merits of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for us so that sins may be forgiven. Before Jesus died for us, God could not forgive us our sins. It would have been unjust to do so since we were undeserving of God's forgiveness. Having peace with God does not mean we are 'saved'. We must still persevere to the end, we must still work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It's not as easy as answering altar call. It requires a life long journey, carrying your cross and following Jesus Christ. There is no easy way out.

Yes, Jesus' sacrifice was efficacious, but our choice to enter into His salvation, and remain there through our life on earth, is our choice. The graces conferred in the sacraments strengthen us and help us persevere in the faith, and make the right choices.

Justification is by faith in a person (Jesus) not by water.

Actually, you're wrong again, but you are pretty close. Justification is not by faith, but rather by the grace of God through our faith. It's something your church probably calls sola gratia. Theologically speaking, it is impossible to even have faith before we receive initial justification through the grace of God.

Was Paul mistaken, Fran? I don't think so.

I don't think so either. I think the mistake is in your interpretation of some scripture you read. Peter told us that some of Paul's writing were very difficult to understand, so I'm sure your mistake is accidental.

By the way, God is not very pleased with how you violently twist the Scriptures.

Are you sure God wants you putting words in His mouth?

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Francisco]

Kevin:

Francisco,

Excellent posts. It's just too easy to expose their lies, isn't it?

Thanks for the compliment, but I would rather not call our debates here exposing lies. Yes, in some cases it becomes very obvious that someone is attacking anothers beliefs out of less than geniune intentions. Those people are liars who deserve to be exposed. Freak, and maybe some of the others here I believe to be sincere Christians who are very firm in their beliefs. All I'm trying to do is to get them to understand our beliefs really aren't that different, that we're all Christians and should treat each other that way, and to maybe explain some doctrine that they've heard misrepresented by others most of their lives and clear up some misunderstandings. Any help you can lend in doing any of the above is greatly appreciated.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Freak]

Wrong Again...

Wrong Again...

Fran incorrectly states: Justification is not by faith.

That is utterly absurd!

The apostle Paul made it clear: Having been justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

THe Scriptures state we are justified by faith. Fran says that is incorrect. Well, I think I'll stick with the Scriptures on this one...

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

Can you have faith before you recieve the grace of God to have faith?

Francisco

 

[Freak]

Fran,

I'm not throwing a trick statement at you.

Justification is by faith according to the Scriptures. We are speaking of justification by faith...

Next...

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.

By the grace of God means as a free gift from God, something He freely bestows on whomever he choses, something we can't merit but He gives us anyway.

Francisco

PS - The quote is from the Southern Baptist Convention's 'Baptist Faith and Message'

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

I think we probably don't really disagree on this, I think it's differences in our terminologies. Let me restate it this way:

The grace of the God has the power to justify us, that is, cleanse us from our sins, and to communicate to us the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Can you agree with that?

Francisco

 

[Francisco]

Freak,

All good things come by the grace of God. Justification is a 'good thing.'

Francisco

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Francisco

How do we know your interpretation is the correct one?

By doing II Timothy 2:15 and Acts 17:11, that's how.

As far as the rest of your post, I think I'll just skip the childish and idiotic responses.

 

[Freak]

Fran states: The grace of the God has the power to justify us, that is, cleanse us from our sins, and to communicate to us the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

I have no problem with that statement.

But it is important that we state very clearly justification is by faith.