ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Sozo]

Because the Bible says so.

2 Corinthians 5:21For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

So then, it is not a law that reveals that we are good, but yet you think that it is a law that reveals that God is good?

 

[Clete]

Are you asserting that Adam had a knowledge of good and evil before he ate the fruit of the tree? That also sounds like a biblical issue.

He was created with the ability to know. He would have come to know good and evil through a relationship with God but he decided to take a short cut as an alternative to the relationship.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (although I don't believe Adam knew this) was and is a symbol of the law. The law is the knowledge of what is right and wrong; what is good and evil. Thus Adam effectively had a choice between the law and a relationship with God, the very same choice we have today in the Body of Christ. And as Paul said, if we choose the law we are cursed just as Adam was and Christ will profit us nothing.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

So then, it is not a law that reveals that we are good, but yet you think that it is a law that reveals that God is good?

What?

Where did you ever get that?

The law is based on what is good and is an expression of it but not the other way around. God's character defines what is and is not good.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Sozo]

What?

Where did you ever get that?

The law is based on what is good and is an expression of it but not the other way around. God's character defines what is and is not good.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Perhaps I misunderstood, but you appeared to be saying to e4e that you believe that God is moral, and that morality is based on adherance to the law.

Is that not what you think?

 

[Clete]

Perhaps I misunderstood, but you appeared to be saying to e4e that you believe that God is moral, and that morality is based on adherance to the law.

Is that not what you think?

No. Morality is based on consistency with a current discription of God's character.

 

[Sozo]

No. Morality is based on consistency with a current discription of God's character.

Okay, we just disagree with the term "moral".

I believe that God is righteous, not moral.

 

[Clete]

Okay, we just disagree with the term "moral".

I believe that God is righteous, not moral.

What the hell is the difference?

Does not morality have to do with right and wrong? You cannot have right and wrong without a standard and God's character is that standard. And the only way you can say with any meaning that God is good is to say that He is consistent with the current discription of His own character.

 

[Sozo]

What the hell is the difference?

Does not morality have to do with right and wrong? You cannot have right and wrong without a standard and God's character is that standard. And the only way you can say with any meaning that God is good is to say that He is consistent with the current discription of His own character.

I believe that the Law is what defines morality.

Don't you believe that people can be moral and not be righteous?

 

[Clete]

I believe that the Law is what defines morality.

Don't you believe that people can be moral and not be righteous?

Not truly moral no. Any morallity that does not conform to the Christian ideal is no morality at all. It seems to me you are making an unesessary and arbitrary distinction between morality and righteousness.

Righteous
Noun
1. righteousness - adhering to moral principles

 

[Sozo]

Righteous
Noun
1. righteousness - adhering to moral principles

Then God is righteous because He adheres to moral principles?

 

[Clete]

Then God is righteous because He adheres to moral principles?

YES! God is good because He is has always has been consistent with a current discription of His character.

 

[Sozo]

YES! God is good because He is has always has been consistent with a current discription of His character.

Clete... this question may appear unrelated, but it is not.

Is either God, or those in Christ corruptible?

 

[Clete]

Clete... this question may appear unrelated, but it is not.

Is either God, or those in Christ corruptible?

Or asked another way...
Is God consistent with the current discription of His character because He cannot be otherwise or because He chooses to be?

I beleive that later. The former would render it meaningless to say that God was good because being good or evil requires a freely chosen act of the will.

So to answer your question directly; God is not corruptible by anyone or anything other than Himself.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

God did not create man, moral. Man had the ability to choose morality. Man choose morality over the will of God. A choice that God specifically told man not to make. Man chose his own morality over the reveled will of God. A moral man is no closer to God than an immoral one.

I am using moral in the tecnical, philosophical, theological sense (in contrast to the area of study of metaphysics= stuff, subtance, things, essence). I am not talking about righteous vs unrighteous, but the fact that man is more than a collection of molecules, has a spirit, and has genuine free will.

 

[godrulz]

Nice point touching the amoral nature of life sans the tree of knowledge of good and evil' Would you edit this word. I don't know what it is.

? old french/Latin = 'without'

 

[godrulz]

Then God is righteous because He adheres to moral principles?

Moral can be defined in a number of ways depending on the context. It has a precise philosophical/theological meaning in contrast to metaphysics, or it can refer to ethics, etc.

 

[elected4ever]

Or asked another way...
Is God consistent with the current discription of His character because He cannot be otherwise or because He chooses to be?

I beleive that later. The former would render it meaningless to say that God was good because being good or evil requires a freely chosen act of the will.

So to answer your question directly; God is not corruptible by anyone or anything other than Himself.

Resting in Him,
Clete

God can cause Himself not to be God? :kookoo:

Man's morality is amoral.

 

[godrulz]

Is loving God and others equivalent to murdering, hating, and sleeping with your neighbour's wife?

 

[elected4ever]

Is loving God and others equivalent to murdering, hating, and sleeping with your neighbour's wife?

??????????????

 

[elected4ever]

Moral can be defined in a number of ways depending on the context. It has a precise philosophical/theological meaning in contrast to metaphysics, or it can refer to ethics, etc.

Morality is ethics.