ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

So, as I suspected, you have adopted an unorthodox doctrine that men are not born sinners. This is a heresy condemned by the Church all the way back to the Apostle Paul. Your simplistic misinterpretation and twisting of Scripture has brought you to a camp that claims all men are born righteous. Scripture plainly refutes you and may the Lord stop you.

He probably means that children are born innocent, not righteous.

"Original sin" is Augustinian. It is presumptious to say it is Pauline. The NIV (which I like and use) translates the Greek word for 'flesh' as 'sinful nature'. This is a preconceived theology. Catholics are strong on original sin.

We are sinners because we sin; we do not sin because we are born sinners.

You also confuse physical depravity from Adam and the Fall, with moral depravity that is volitional and not inheritable.

We do agree that all men are condemned as sinners since all eventually do sin and fall short of the glory of God. An aborted fetus does not go to hell because he is not infant baptized. The fetus does not have the moral and mental capacity to sin. He has a blank slate, even as Adam once did. Lucifer and Adam sinned without a sinful nature back of their wills. "Original sin" was Augustine's attempt to explain why he personally had so much bondage to sin. We do not need the concept to explain why all men sin and are condemned as sinners.

The few proof texts for original sin, like Ps. 51, have an alternate explanation based on context. It is a deductive concept that is not implicit in Scripture.

Sin is not in the realm of metaphysics (stuff, substance). Sin is in the realm of morals (volition; choice; lawlessness). Confusing these categories leads to the absurd idea that sin (adultery, murder, stealing, etc.) can be passed on genetically.

We are responsible for our sin. The soul that sins is the one that dies (Ezekiel). We cannot blame it on Adam or Satan.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

ChristisKing,

You say:

This is a heresy condemned by the Church all the way back to the Apostle Paul. Your simplistic misinterpretation and twisting of Scripture has brought you to a camp that claims all men are born righteous. Scripture plainly refutes you and may the Lord stop you.

I have twisted no Scripture.I provided an answer for the verses you used in your attempt to prove that a man is born spiritually dead but you did not even to attempt to answer the verses I provided.

You say that Paul refutes my verse but by his own words he says that he was alive spiritually at one time in his life.That being true it is plain that he was not born spiritually dead.And I never said that an infant is born righteous.

Perhaps this time you will actually address these verses instead of ignoring them.

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions"(Eccl.7:29).

And how can someone who is described as a son of the devil be said to be made in the similitude of God:?

"Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, who are made after the similitude of God"(Jms.3:9).

The Calvinists teach that a man is born spiritually dead but the Scriptures declare that a man dies spiritually when he sins.Here are Paul's own words in regard to his own experience:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death"(Ro.7:9,10).

He is obviously speaking of "spiritual" death because he said that he "died" and that could not be speaking of physical death.And since it is the breaking of law that caused his own spiritual death he says that the law is "the ministration of death":

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away"(2Cor.6,7).

Paul was alive spiritually at one time so he surely wasn't born spiritually dead.

The teaching of original sin comes directly from Rome.So there is no wonder that Calvin cites Augustine to back up his ideas.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

ChristisKing,
Perhaps this time you will actually address these verses instead of ignoring them.

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions"(Eccl.7:29).

God did make man upright, Adam and Eve. But they fell and all their children after them.

ROM 5:12 ¶ Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned --

And how can someone who is described as a son of the devil be said to be made in the similitude of God:?

"Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, who are made after the similitude of God"(Jms.3:9).

That is why our sin is terrible, we are created in the image of God but we deface that image everyday as we sin.

The Calvinists teach that a man is born spiritually dead but the Scriptures declare that a man dies spiritually when he sins.Here are Paul's own words in regard to his own experience:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death"(Ro.7:9,10).

Another wrong interpretation, Paul was dead all the time, he just discovered it when he read the law, that's all he is saying. That's why he also wrote this:

ROM 5:12 ¶ Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned --

The teaching of original sin comes directly from Rome.So there is no wonder that Calvin cites Augustine to back up his ideas.

I thought you said Calvin didn't teach this?!?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God did make man upright, Adam and Eve. But they fell and all their children after them.

The words I quoted from Ecclesiastes is not speaking of Adam and Eve but instead all men.Did you even read the context?

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions"(Eccl.7:29).

ROM 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned --

Did you even bother to read what is said in this verse?

It says that death passed upon all men because all have sinned!

That is why our sin is terrible, we are created in the image of God but we deface that image everyday as we sin.

According to you man is born in the image of Satan and it totally corrupt and spiritually dead but at the same time it can be said that man is made in the similitude of God.

Another wrong interpretation, Paul was dead all the time, he just discovered it when he read the law, that's all he is saying.

There you go again changing the meaning of what Paul said.He did not say that he discoved that he was born dead but instead he says": "I died".

"For sin taking occasion by the commandment,decived me,and by it slew me"(Ro.7:11).

If Paul was dead from birth why would he say that he was alive once?

You make the Word of God of no effect by your traditions.You must pervert what Paul said in order to make what he says fit your ideas.

That's why he also wrote this:

ROM 5:12 ¶ Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned --

How does he say that death came to all men?

Because all sinned!That is exactly what I am saying and that is what Paul says.It is Calvinism that denies what Paul says.

I thought you said Calvin didn't teach this?!?

I said that I never heard Calvin say that it is Satan who blinds men at birth.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

ChristIsKing: God did make man upright, Adam and Eve. But they fell and all their children after them.

Jerry: The words I quoted from Ecclesiastes is not speaking of Adam and Eve but instead all men.

Could this not refer to Adam and Eve, though, is this impossible?

Jerry: It says that death passed upon all men because all have sinned!

Yes, and "all" means all, does it not? No one has not sinned, not even the youngest, so this means "there is none righteous, not even one."

Jerry: According to you man is born in the image of Satan…

Nobody says that, though, as ChristIsKing just said, we are in the image of God, which has yet been defaced.

Jerry: If Paul was dead from birth why would he say that he was alive once?

Just as the blind can yet be blinded…

Blessings,
Lee

 

[ChristisKing]

ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Could this not refer to Adam and Eve, though, is this impossible?

Yes, you'll notice that the Holy Spirit uses the word "man" in the singular which of course is Adam which He did create upright. But later he and his posterity sinned. That is all this verse is saying.

Sin entered the world by one man and as a result all are born sinners, there is none born "innocent."

ROM 5:12 ¶ Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned --

ROM 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation...,

ROM 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Could this not refer to Adam and Eve, though, is this impossible?

The context says no:

"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not"(Eccl.7:20).

Yes, and "all" means all, does it not? No one has not sinned, not even the youngest, so this means "there is none righteous, not even one."

It is saying that men experience spiritual death because they sin and not because they were born that way.

Nobody says that, though, as ChristIsKing just said, we are in the image of God, which has yet been defaced.

O yes,the following is an example of man being created in the similitude of God:

Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory..

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.("Westminster Confession of Faith",Chapter 6).

Paul says that a man becomes dead in sin because he breaks the law,but the Calvinists say that a man becomes dead in sin because he is born that way.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, you'll notice that the Holy Spirit uses the word "man" in the singular which of course is Adam which He did create upright...

ChrisisKing,

Are we suppose the believe that the meaning is a single man?:

"God hath made man upright,but they have sought out many devices"(Eccl.7:29).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

ChrisisKing,

Are we suppose the believe that the meaning is a single man?:

"God hath made man upright,but they have sought out many devices"(Eccl.7:29).

Yep, that sure is what it say's. God only made one man, and He did make him upright. But that man and his posterity, "they," sought out many devices.

ROM 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,

By one man's disobedience, many were made sinners.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"I discovered that God created people to be upright, but they have each turned to follow their own downward path"(NLT).

"Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices"(NASB).

 

[ChristisKing]

"I discovered that God created people to be upright, but they have each turned to follow their own downward path"(NLT).

"Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices"(NASB).

29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man [Hebrew: adam, Strong's #0120] upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Even "the armininan of arminians," John Wesley, refuted the heresy of those who denied Original Sin and the Deity of Jesus Christ , the two heresies going "hand-in-hand," led by the Deist Dr. John Taylor of Norwich in the 1700's. The famous Methodist theologian, Richard Watson, defended the faith in the 1820's by writing Theological Institutes in defense of the Biblical Doctrine of Original Sin and Deity of Jesus Christ. Of course he had to temporarily borrow capital from the great Bank of Calvinism (Jonathon Edwards, the Calvinist leader of the Great Awakening and former President of Princeton University aka the greatest "Amercican born" intellectual of America to this day) because of the deficits of Arminianism. But anyway, Watson wrote:

"This natural image of God in which man was created, was the foundation of that MORAL IMAGE by which also he was distinguished. Un*less lie had been a spiritual, knowing, and willing being, lie would have been wholly incapable of moral qualities. That he had such qualities eminently, and that in them consisted the image of God, as well as in the natural attributes just stated, we have also the express testimony of Scripture. “Lo this only have I found, that God made man UPRIGHT, but they have sought out many inventions.” The objections taken to this proof are thus satisfactorily answered by President (of Princeton) Edwards :— “It is an observation of no weight which Dr. Taylor makes on this text, that the word man is commonly used to signify mankind in general, or mankind collectively taken. It is true, it often signifies the species of mankind; but then it is used to signify time species, with regard to its duration and succession from its beginning, as well as with regard to its extent. The English word mankind is used to signify the species: but what then? Would it be an improper way of speaking, to say, that when God first made mankind, he placed them in a pleasant paradise, (meaning in their first parents,) but now they live in the midst of briers and thorns? And it is certain, that to speak thus of God making man*kind,—his giving the species an existence in their first parents, at the creation,—is agreeable to the Scripture use of such an expression. As in Deut. iv, 32, ‘Since the day that God CREATED MAN upon the earth.’ Job xx, 4, ‘Knowest thou not this of old, since MAN was placed upon the earth.’ Isaiah xlv, 12, ‘I have made the earth, and CREATED MAN upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens.’ Jer. xxvii, 5, 'I HAVE MADE the earth, the MAN and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power.’ All these texts speak of God making man, signifying the species of mankind; and yet they all plainly have respect to God making man at first, when he ‘made the earth,’ ‘and stretched out the heavens.’ In all these places the same word, Adam, is used as in Ecclesiastes; and in the last of these, used with (HE emphaticum) the emphatic sign, as here; though Dr.T. omits it when he tells us he gives us a catalogue of all the places in Scripture where the word is used. And it argues nothing to the doctor’s purpose, that the pronoun they is used,— ‘THEY have sought out many inventions.’ This is properly applied to the species, which God made at first upright; the species begun with more than one, and continued in a multitude. As Christ speaks of the two sexes, in the relation of man and wife, continued in successive gene. rations: Matt. xix, 4, ‘He that MADE THEM at the beginning, made them male and female,’ having reference to Adam and Eve."

As I mentioned earlier, open theists and Jerry have abandoned Orthodox Biblical Christianity and have believed a lie in order that God would be "made in their image" because God can not be the God that the bible describes, that would make Him too big of a meany....in "their" opinion!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man [Hebrew: adam, Strong's #0120] upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The word "adam" is the Greek word for "mankind".According to your idea of the translkation we should believe that it is saying:

"God hath made Adam upright,but they have sought out many devices.

That may make sense to you but there is a reason why the is not even one translation out of the many translations of the Bible that translates the verse that way.

The following is one of the meanings of the word translated "man":

"man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT).

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1116683887-6666.html

As far as the idea that Adam's sin is somehow imputed to all his descendants please consider the one of the reasons that we should reject the teaching of original sin"

It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.

In fact, if the doctrine of original sin were true, sin would be a calamity rather than a crime. Could a sinful nature be the crime of him upon whom it is entailed without his knowledge or consent? If this doctrine were true, the sinner would be the most unfortunate creature in the universe. To blame him or call him criminal for his sins would be absurd, and to punish him for his sins would be a cruel injustice. He would not deserve punishment for his sins, but would rather deserve pity and compassion for the misfortune he had suffered by being born into this world with a sinful nature. And, of course, under these circumstances the Bible would have to be rewritten. For it never speaks of the sinner as unfortunate. It speaks of the sinner's guilt and ill-desert. In the Bible, sin is represented as a crime that deserves the everlasting punishment of hell.(A.T.Overstreet).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

The word "adam" is the Greek word for "mankind".According to your idea of the translkation we should believe that it is saying:

"God hath made Adam upright,but they have sought out many devices.

That may make sense to you but there is a reason why the is not even one translation out of the many translations of the Bible that translates the verse that way.

As far as the idea that Adam's sin is somehow imputed to all his descendants please consider the one of the reasons that we should reject the teaching of original sin"

It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.

In fact, if the doctrine of original sin were true, sin would be a calamity rather than a crime. Could a sinful nature be the crime of him upon whom it is entailed without his knowledge or consent? If this doctrine were true, the sinner would be the most unfortunate creature in the universe. To blame him or call him criminal for his sins would be absurd, and to punish him for his sins would be a cruel injustice. He would not deserve punishment for his sins, but would rather deserve pity and compassion for the misfortune he had suffered by being born into this world with a sinful nature. And, of course, under these circumstances the Bible would have to be rewritten. For it never speaks of the sinner as unfortunate. It speaks of the sinner's guilt and ill-desert. In the Bible, sin is represented as a crime that deserves the everlasting punishment of hell.(A.T.Overstreet).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

But unfortunately Ecclesiastes was originally written in Hebrew not Greek, so in the original language that the Holy Spirit used to convey His thoughts the word "man" is adam! So yes, I agree with the "original" Hebrew translation and the President of Princeton and John Wesley and Richard Watson and disagree with the heretic Taylor and Open Theist's and you.

As far as the idea that Adam's sin is imputed to all his descendants please consider one of the numerous Scriptural proofs why we should accept the teaching of original sin that is Orthodox Christianity for over 2000 years:

ROM 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,

 

[Clete]

But unfortunately Ecclesiastes was originally written in Hebrew not Greek, so in the original language that the Holy Spirit used to convey His thoughts the word "man" is adam! So yes, I agree with the "original" Hebrew translation and the President of Princeton and John Wesley and Richard Watson and disagree with the heretic Taylor and Open Theist's and you.

As far as the idea that Adam's sin is imputed to all his descendants please consider one of the numerous Scriptural proofs why we should accept the teaching of original sin that is Orthodox Christianity for over 2000 years:

ROM 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,

Why did you end at the comma?

ROM 5:19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.​

Original sin or no, because of what Christ did at the cross, no man will go to hell because of Adam's sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But unfortunately Ecclesiastes was originally written in Hebrew not Greek, so in the original language that the Holy Spirit used to convey His thoughts the word "man" is adam!

ChristisKing,

I meant to say "Hebrew" instead of "Greek".And the following is one of the meanings of the word "adam":

"man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT).

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_...83887-6666.html

Therefore,when the verse says that "God hath made man upright,but they have sought out many devices" we should use our common sense and realize that the reference is to "men" and not just Adam.

And that is why there is not even one translation of the Bible that says,"God hath made Adam upright..."

Man was made upright because,as James says,we men are made after the similitude of God.

Do you think that the following verse is in regard to the man "Adam"?:

"He that toucheth the dead body of any man (adam) shall be unclean seven days"(Num.19:11).

As far as the idea that Adam's sin is imputed to all his descendants please consider one of the numerous Scriptural proofs why we should accept the teaching of original sin that is Orthodox Christianity for over 2000 years:

ROM 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,

You leave out the earlier part of the discourse which tells us exactly how a man is made a sinner:

"and so death passed upon all men,for all have sinned(Ro.5:12).

Sin is ther transgression of law,so in order to be a sinner one must sin.Please consider the following:

When we speak of sin, we are describing the character of an act. The word sin describes the character of an act as being wicked or wrong.

Sin is no more a substance than friendliness, goodness, or virtue are substances. If sin is a substance that can be transmitted physically, then virtue also must be a substance that can be transmitted physically. And what would be the result if all this were true? Why, sinners would beget sinners, and saints, of course, would beget saints!

Sin is not a substance, and we all know that sin is not a substance. Yet learned theologians still maintain the impossible dogma that sin, like some malignant disease, has been passed on physically from Adam to all his descendants. How ridiculous it is to make sin a physical virus, instead of a voluntary and responsible choice. How foolish to speak of men being born sinners! Only in some fantastic science fiction novel might moral character be spoken of as being passed on physically in the bloodstream of man. Moral character, whether holiness or sinfulness, cannot be passed on physically. It is gross superstition to believe that it can be.(A.T.Overstreet)

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

ChristisKing,

I meant to say "Hebrew" instead of "Greek".And the following is one of the meanings of the word "adam":

"man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT).

Jerry,

You meant to address me as ChristisKing and you called me "godrulz", you meant to say "Hebrew" and you said "Greek." You respond to my posts litterally within minutes and it has become very obvious that they are without too much thought. May I please may a suggestion?

Slow down!

Give some thought to what you are saying and what others are saying to you. Give some thought to what the Holy Spirit has been teaching the Church for 2000 years. Maybe you haven't figured "everything out" yet. Maybe the Church has not been mistaken for 2000 years in it's Orthodoxy. Maybe the excommunicated heretics who believed the doctrines that you both believe and are teaching were excommunicated for a reason. Maybe the President of Princeton Jonathan Edwards, well known as the greatest native born American intellectual to have ever lived, can teach you something. Maybe Martin Luther, John Knox, John Calvin, the Westminster Assembly, the Mayflower Pilgrims, the 39 Articles of the Church of England, and the Reformation etc., can teach you something.

Stop with the "flash posts" and think!

Start with some careful thought about how the word "man" is used interchangably" for "Adam" throughout Scripture. Maybe you are mistaken with this as well. Consider just these few quick examples:

Gen 1:26,27

KJV - 26 And God said, Let us make man {Hebrew adam} in our image, after our likeness:... 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

ESV - 26 Then God said, "Let us make man {Hebrew adam} in our image, after our likeness... 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

NRSV - 26 Then God said, "Let us make humankind {Hebrew adam} in our image, according to our likeness;... " 27 So God created humankind {Hebrew adam} in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

TEV: - 26 Then God said, "And now we will make human beings {Hebrew adam}; they will be like us and resemble us... 27 So God created human beings{Hebrew adam}, making them to be like himself. He created them male and female,

Gen 2:6,7

KJV - 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man {Hebrew adam} of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man {Hebrew adam} became a living soul... 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam {Hebrew adam} to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam {Hebrew adam} called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam {Hebrew adam} gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam {Hebrew adam} there was not found an help meet for him. 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam {Hebrew adam}, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man {Hebrew adam}, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man {Hebrew adam}.

ESV - 6 and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground -- 7 then the LORD God formed the man {Hebrew adam} of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man {Hebrew adam} became a living creature... 19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man {Hebrew adam} to see what he would call them. And whatever the man {Hebrew adam} called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man {Hebrew adam} gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam {Hebrew adam} there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man {Hebrew adam} , and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man {Hebrew adam} he made into a woman and brought her to the man{Hebrew adam}.

NRSV - 6 but a stream would rise from the earth, and water the whole face of the ground — 7 then the Lord God formed man {Hebrew adam} from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man {Hebrew adam} became a living being... 19 So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man {Hebrew adam} to see what he would call them; and whatever the man {Hebrew adam} called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man {Hebrew adam} gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man {Hebrew adam} there was not found a helper as his partner. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man {Hebrew adam} , and he slept; then he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man {Hebrew adam} he made into a woman and brought her to the man {Hebrew adam} .


TEV - 6 but water would come up from beneath the surface and water the ground. 7 Then the Lord God took some soil from the ground and formed a man {Hebrew adam} out of it; he breathed life-giving breath into his nostrils and the man {Hebrew adam} began to live... 19 So he took some soil from the ground and formed all the animals and all the birds. Then he brought them to the man {Hebrew adam} to see what he would name them; and that is how they all got their names. 20 So the man {Hebrew adam} named all the birds and all the animals; but not one of them was a suitable companion to help him. 21 Then the Lord God made the man {Hebrew adam} fall into a deep sleep, and while he was sleeping, he took out one of the man's {Hebrew adam} ribs and closed up the flesh. 22 He formed a woman out of the rib and brought her to him.

Stop and think! :idea:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry,Slow down!

ChristisKing,

I proof read my posts before I post them but sometimes I overlook a mistake or two.But I will attempt to do better.

Give some thought to what you are saying and what others are saying to you.

This from someone so thoughtful that he says that before a person can become a disciple of Christ he must first hate his family.

Stop with the "flash posts" and think!

I notice that you posted so quickly that you failed to answer the questions which I asked.

Start with some careful thought about how the word "man" is used interchangably" for "Adam" throughout Scripture. Maybe you are mistaken with this as well. Consider just these few quick examples:

Yes,you give examples where the Scriptures are speaking about the man Adam,but you failed to quote the hundreds of verses where the word "adam" is in regard to mankind.You ignored what I said:

The following is one of the meanings of the word "adam":

"man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT).

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_...83887-6666.html

Consider the following verse:

"He that toucheth the dead body of any man (adam) shall be unclean seven days"(Num.19:11).

Do you think that this is in reference to the man Adam?

Did you take the time to go to the site I provided?If you did then why are you attempting to prove that when the Hebrew word "adam" is used it must always be in reference to the man Adam.And you prove that it is you who is not thinking,or else you would understand that the word "they" would not be used if the reference is to the man Adam.

When the verse says that "God hath made man upright,but they have sought out many devices" we should use our common sense and realize that the reference is to "men" and not just Adam.

You seem incapable of using the common sense that you were given.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Lee: Could this not refer to Adam and Eve, though, is this impossible?

Jerry: The context says no:

"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not"(Eccl.7:20).

But the closer context is "man" versus "they," as ChristIsKing mentioned, and creation is not birth, I think!

But this is a good verse to consider, there is really not even one just man on earth? Not even the youngest humans? Yes, I agree, "no one does good, not even one."

Lee: Yes, and "all" means all, does it not?

Jerry: It is saying that men experience spiritual death because they sin…

Then how is it that "There is no one who is righteous," surely Paul didn't forget about children and infants while writing Scripture…

Jerry: Paul says that a man becomes dead in sin because he breaks the law…

Paul doesn't actually say that, though, he says, "I died," which might be taken in several ways, but this cannot: "None righteous, not even … one."

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lee,

You said:

But this is a good verse to consider, there is really not even one just man on earth? Not even the youngest humans? Yes, I agree, "no one does good, not even one."

Please consider the words of the Lord Jesus in the following verse:

”But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein”(Lk.18:16).

How can you say that an innocent child is dead in sin despite the words of the Lord when he says that “such is the kingdom of God”?

How can anyone reconcile the idea that an innocent child is “dead in sin” with the following words?:

”Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward”(Ps.127:3).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

ChristisKing,

I proof read my posts before I post them but sometimes I overlook a mistake or two.But I will attempt to do better.

Jerry,

Let me just pls suggest to you that its more than just "a mistake or two," it is many. Some of them are just so obvious that even you have to admit to them.

These obvious error's clearly indicate that you are "flash posting!" This is not a race to see who can respond the fastest. Just take more time to think before you write. I think Lee is making some very good points here. Give him and others the benefit of some thought. It could be the Lord is trying to teach you something, He has blessed some of His people with the gift of teaching and He will bless you if you listen to them.

Pls don't take this wrong but I don't think you have that gift. If you keep "flash posting" I'm afraid you are going to have to "race" with someone else.