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  • Originally posted by Battuta
    How would you describe glory, ChristisKIng?
    The Scriptures teach that God predestined Christ to come in the flesh to be the only Savior for all flesh who would be saved. In this way Christ would receive all the glory for redeeming all men and women who receive eternal life.

    No flesh would be able to earn it and receive the glory of their good works. The glory was predestined to Christ's alone!

    Comment


    • I see redemption as both predestined and certain.

      Originally Posted by godrulz

      I prefer to distinguish possibilities from actualities. God's reaction of grief implies He did not anticipate the Fall as a certainty, but as a possibility He was prepared to deal with (even from eternity past).
      I don't find a possibility here. I see either a certainty or the time leading up to that certainty. God is saying he won't settle for any other possible closure outside of the plan of redemption. That much was predestined.

      Please identify the reaction of grief to which you refer. I just scanned Genesis 3 and didn't find it.

      Comment


      • ChristisKing,

        I want to keep discussing with you another day. Please choose a few scriptures for us to look at. 1 Cor. 1:29 did not convince me, but your argument deserves more consideration. I've enjoyed this thread more than the previous ones I was in.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ChristisKing
          The Scriptures teach that God predestined Christ to come in the flesh to be the only Savior for all flesh who would be saved. In this way Christ would receive all the glory for redeeming all men and women who receive eternal life.

          No flesh would be able to earn it and receive the glory of their good works. The glory was predestined to Christ's alone!

          TULIP, I presume?
          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Battuta
            I don't find a possibility here. I see either a certainty or the time leading up to that certainty. God is saying he won't settle for any other possible closure outside of the plan of redemption. That much was predestined.

            Please identify the reaction of grief to which you refer. I just scanned Genesis 3 and didn't find it.
            God predestined that IF man fell, Christ would die. He predestined the nature and need for redemption as a contingency, not foregone conclusion before it happened.

            The grief after the Fall was Genesis 6:9 (proximal to the Fall=Noah, not centuries later): "The Lord was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain."

            Creation was originally 'very good'. After man became wicked, God's disposition changed. This did not happen trillions of years before the Fall when He delighted at the possibility of a free creation that would love Him in relationship without coercion.
            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Battuta
              ChristisKing,

              I want to keep discussing with you another day. Please choose a few scriptures for us to look at. 1 Cor. 1:29 did not convince me, but your argument deserves more consideration. I've enjoyed this thread more than the previous ones I was in.
              Sure, pls just let me know the day and I'll be glad to continue this...I want to tell you how refreshing this is for me to see such a godly attitude and tone from you Battuta. You must be born from above.

              Comment


              • For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

                Originally posted by Battuta
                ChristisKing,

                I want to keep discussing with you another day. Please choose a few scriptures for us to look at. 1 Cor. 1:29 did not convince me, but your argument deserves more consideration. I've enjoyed this thread more than the previous ones I was in.
                As you requested, other Scripture to consider that reveals how God had predestined Christ to receive all the glory for saving all men and women who would have eternal life:

                According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ( EPH 1:4-5)

                That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (EPH 1:10)

                And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, (EPH 1:22)

                And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (COL 1:18-19)

                You begin to see the beauty of the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God and predestination; it reveals how God had always planned that Christ should receive all the glory and honor before God created one thing. Christ is exalted and honored above any and all men in this doctrine. In open theism, as you rightly point out, Adam and Eve and numerous others could have rec'd all the glory and honor in earning their own salvation. But according to Scripture God would have none of this, He would not give any of the credit for earning eternal life to anyone except His Son. His Son was predestined to receive it all, "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell."
                Last edited by ChristisKing; May 1, 2005, 12:52 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Knight
                  Does God have control of His knowledge? Or does God's knowledge control Him?

                  In other words....
                  If God decided He didn't want to know something could He choose to NOT know it? Or is God a slave to His own knowledge?
                  Very confusing question to me.

                  If God did not want to know something, He would have to know what He didn't want to know before choosing not to know it. I don't think it is a master-slave relationship either.

                  Proverbs 8:22-36 says God is, His Wisdom is. Best I can do. (No, I don't want to get into what the definition of "is" is. )

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ChristisKing
                    As you requested, other Scripture to consider that reveals how God had predestined Christ to receive all the glory for saving all men and women who would have eternal life:

                    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ( EPH 1:4-5)

                    That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (EPH 1:10)

                    And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, (EPH 1:22)

                    And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (COL 1:18-19)

                    You begin to see the beauty of the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God and predestination; it reveals how God had always planned that Christ should receive all the glory and honor before God created one thing. Christ is exalted and honored above any and all men in this doctrine. In open theism, as you rightly point out, Adam and Eve and numerous others could have rec'd all the glory and honor in earning their own salvation. But according to Scripture God would have none of this, He would not give any of the credit for earning eternal life to anyone except His Son. His Son was predestined to receive it all, "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell."

                    Just to add a couple of more before I head off to church:

                    2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

                    Gee, here we are told that these people specifically were chosen from the begining for salvation. I know these OVers like to say that "election is corporate, not individual", but here in this passage Paul is thanking God that these SPECIFIC people were chosen from the begining.

                    Gal 1:15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased

                    Wow, here is Paul being set apart from the womb. Doesn't sound like he had much choice in the matter.

                    Ok, I would give more but I have to go now ... have a great Sunday morning everyone!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Frank Ernest
                      Very confusing question to me.

                      If God did not want to know something, He would have to know what He didn't want to know before choosing not to know it. I don't think it is a master-slave relationship either.

                      Proverbs 8:22-36 says God is, His Wisdom is. Best I can do. (No, I don't want to get into what the definition of "is" is. )

                      Proverbs 8 is about wisdom. It is personified as a figure of speech. The context is not saying God is Wisdom (though it is true that God is wise and Christ is the wisdom of God...different contexts).

                      The idea that God could chose to not know something He is able to know does not compute. It is not the classical view nor normative Open Theism.

                      The only way I can see that God does not know something knowable is to create beings with free moral agency (libertarian free will). This type of creation (vs determinism) means that the future cannot be exhaustively foreknown by the omniscient God. It is an issue with the nature of freedom and an open future, not God willing directly to not know something other beings in the universe could know.


                      e.g. Some think that God forgiving our sins means that He forgets them. Forgiveness does not mean literal forgetfulness, even for humans. It is chosing to not bring them up again, though God and sinner or offended person could recall them to mind if they wanted to.

                      If something is a possible object of knowledge, God could not chose to not know it. He is omnipresent and omniscient, knowing all that is knowable. In relation to the future, He correctly knows things as possibilities until they become certainties/actualities with the choice.

                      Omnipotence does not mean that God does everything He could possibly do. He also cannot do logically contradictory or absurd things. Omnipotence is not identical to omniscience in its ability or limitations.
                      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Berean Todd
                        Just to add a couple of more before I head off to church:

                        2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

                        Gee, here we are told that these people specifically were chosen from the begining for salvation. I know these OVers like to say that "election is corporate, not individual", but here in this passage Paul is thanking God that these SPECIFIC people were chosen from the begining.

                        Gal 1:15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased

                        Wow, here is Paul being set apart from the womb. Doesn't sound like he had much choice in the matter.

                        Ok, I would give more but I have to go now ... have a great Sunday morning everyone!

                        Both these verses cannot be extrapolated to eternity past, trillions of years ago. They are proximal chosing vs remote.

                        God set apart Jeremiah and Paul from the womb for a specific ministry. This was God's intention and purpose. It is not related to individual salvation (TULIP). Other passages show that God's intentions and purposes can be thwarted. If Jeremiah or Paul would have not followed God, they would not have fulfilled their intended calling. Jer. 1 and Gal. 1 (written after the fact) may not have been inspired as written. God desires that all men be saved. Not all men are saved. Some people God called and intended for specific ministry also dropped the ball (Judas, Saul, Demas, etc.). God calls many men, but not all respond to His call. Many are called, but few are chosen in the end.
                        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by godrulz
                          The idea that God could chose to not know something He is able to know does not compute. It is not the classical view nor normative Open Theism.
                          You're right, it doesn't compute, it can't compute. It's unbelieveable that many Open Theists not only believe this but openly teach it, like in forum's like this.

                          There are many things God can not do, He can not lie, He can not sin, He can not change, and He can not "stop knowing" or rather choose to not know. He is God and He can't stop being God.

                          But you're delimna in undersatnding this attribute about God is that if God knows all and leaves the future "open" to "free agents," then if God doesn't like the way things are going to work out all He has to do is change something. For instance, if God did not want to humble himself and become a man and die all He had to do was not create man, or not create satan, or not create the tree of good and evil, or, or, or, ......

                          Everything that comes to pass is because God wills it and if it's evil He only allows it in order to turn it around for the good. God does not allow evil to happen without a specific reason to fulfill His ultimate purpose. The ultimate evil to ever have been committed on planet Earth was the killing of the Son of God and that was predestined for our good!

                          ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

                          Comment


                          • There is a difference between the predestined death and resurrection of Christ and heinous evil perpetuated by the likes of Hitler. Hitler is possible because of free moral agency. God allows it, but this does not mean that killing Jews is inherently able to be turned to good. Evil is contrary to God's will. Jesus came to destroy evil, not affirm it as God's predestined will. Evil originates in Satan's and man's choices. God is not the only moral agent in the universe with volition. Evil is a misuse of our wills. God is not culpable for evil (contrary to His revealed character and Word). Hyper-sovereignty leads to wrong conclusions about the nature of evil (theodicy= problem of evil).

                            The other problem with your logic is that just because God predestines some things, does not mean He predestines all things. God can bring things to pass by His power (e.g. First and Second Coming), but that does not mean He is responsible for the brutal rape of children. Evil could have been avoided by not creating, or by creating deterministic robots. Scripture and reality show that this is not the type of creation God made. In the end, evil will be dealt with and He will rule and reign in righteousness. Evil is not turned to good in all cases. Satan will experience torment day and night forever and ever. He is not redeemed from bad to good.
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                            Comment


                            • Hi everyone,

                              Originally posted by godrulz
                              Hitler is possible because of free moral agency. God allows it, but this does not mean that killing Jews is inherently able to be turned to good.
                              Not inherently, this is indeed a miracle when God brings good out of what was intended for evil.

                              God is not culpable for evil (contrary to His revealed character and Word). Hyper-sovereignty leads to wrong conclusions about the nature of evil (theodicy= problem of evil).
                              Did God not know what might happen in creating the world? Is there no responsibility when God sees Hitler set out to kill people, and does not stop him?

                              Evil could have been avoided by not creating, or by creating deterministic robots.
                              Then God made a world where evil could exist, for a greater good that he saw. That is the Calvinist view, too.

                              Only Calvinists would go farther, and say that for those who love God, all works out for good, not "all evil for them, God attempts to minimize."

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions from which we receive no word to bring away." (George MacDonald)

                              Comment


                              • General election is also an option.

                                Hi again, ChristisKing,

                                What I really am saying is I was signing out but I intend to keep coming back. A little bit every day is probably better than long stretches. I'm sure you have other responsibilities, too.

                                When we discuss the Bible we need to remember we are using inductive reasoning. Estimation is involved here. We are not using deductive reasoning as we would in mathematics. We are looking at Open Theism to find out if it is plausible. We could look at Calvinism the same way. Afterwards we estimate which we think is more biblical.

                                Also, we need to try to keep focused. The subject is still predestination and free will up to the time of the fall, or hypothetical, what if the fall occurred millions of years later.

                                My post 146 says Open Theism needs to include predestination. The predestination I am suggesting is minimal compared to Calvinism, but more to your liking than how some OVers express it. As you can see, godrulz is pulling on me one way, and you are pulling from the other side.

                                Eph. 1:4,5 I believe this predestination took place before the foundation of the world, in conjunction with 1 Peter 1:18-20. 1 Peter tells us Christ will be the redeemer, and he will suffer and shed his blood as part of fulfilling this task. Ephesians tells us the result will be sonship for a body of believers. Romans 8:29 and following tells us the result will be a body of believers who are conformed to the likeness of God's Son. They will experience a calling, justification and glorification. They will not be condemned. Nothing will separate them from the love of God in Christ.

                                I can hold to this view and consider the predestination (and election which accompanies it) was not specific about details such as what the names of these believers will be or when they will be saved.

                                At this point, I will agree with you that specific election is a plausible interpretation of these verses. Can you see that general election is also a plausible interpretation of these verses? Can we prefer different views, but still see the plausibility of the other view.

                                Comment

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