Creation vs. Evolution

[noguru]

Yes

--Dave

OK then. Make yourself immaterial by reducing yourself to subatomic particles/energy, transfer your atoms through my computer, and reassemble yourself right in front of me.

Otherwise you are a liar.

I'm waiting. :sherlock:

 

[DFT_Dave]

OK then. Make yourself immaterial by reducing yourself to subatomic particles/energy, transfer your atoms through my computer, and reassemble yourself right in front of me.

Otherwise you are a liar.

Non sequitur

--Dave

 

[noguru]

Duplicate.

 

[noguru]

Non sequitur

--Dave

No, it's not a "non sequitur". You claimed we were not governed by the laws of physics/the universe. If you are not governed by those, then you should be able to do as I ask to prove it to me. I mean you are the one claiming this. Do you want to support your claim, or do you expect me to just take your word for it?

Make yourself immaterial by reducing yourself to subatomic particles/energy, transfer your atoms through my computer, and reassemble yourself right in front of me.

Otherwise you are a liar.

I'm waiting. :sherlock:

 

[DFT_Dave]

No, it's not a "non sequitur". You claimed we were not governed by the laws of physics/the universe. If you are not governed by those, then you should be able to do as I ask to prove it to me. I mean you are the one claiming this. Do you want to support your claim, or do you expect me to just take your word for it?

Make yourself immaterial by reducing yourself to subatomic particles/energy, transfer your atoms through my computer, and reassemble yourself right in front of me.

Otherwise you are a liar.

I'm waiting. :sherlock:

The question is not are our bodies subject to physical law, is our thinking and our acts subject to physical laws.

God is Spirit, non-material. He breathed into Adams body the breath of life that we call soul and spirit, they are non-material, the basis for free will and the formation of our own thoughts.

Nature, as per quote from Nietzsche, makes us "machines".

--Dave

 

[noguru]

God is Spirit, non-material. He breathed into Adams body the breath of life that we call soul and spirit, they are non-material, the basis for free will and the formation of our own thoughts.

Nature, as per quote from Nietzsche, makes us "machines".

--Dave

I asked you a specific question, not this one. I said nothing of Nietzche's perspective on this.

Do I need to repeat myself, or will you admit you were wrong?

 

[DFT_Dave]

I often wonder about this, as I do about secularist who seem convinced the universe (time space and energy) began from nothing with the Big Bang. The very suggestion that time had a beginning suggests time, which is a paradox. If, as the evidence suggests, the universe is expanding, it surly must be expanding into "space". Energy cannot be created or destroyed but can change form. Why assume this has ever been any different? It's perfectly plausible that pre Big Bang energy resembled nothing recognised now.

What does an infinite regress mean for a pre Big Bang existence anyway?

Roger Penrose on "before" the Big Bang

Bearing in mind that Penrose would have thought "before" the Big Bang unthinkable a few years ago, not that he or anyone else really knows.

The expansion of time and space clearly contradicts that there was no space time to expand into.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

I asked you a specific question, not this one. I said nothing of Nietzche's perspective on this.

Do I need to repeat myself, or will you admit you were wrong?

I think you should follow my thread and train of thought and not make up a new direction.

--Dave

 

[noguru]

I think you should follow my thread and train of thought and not make up a new direction.

--Dave

This is not a new direction. You seemed to doubt whether we are governed by the laws of physics/the universe. I asked you "Do you claim we are not governed by the laws of physics/unviverse?" You answered "yes" to that. I am simply now asking you to support your claim. Will you support your claim, or admit that you were wrong?

:think:

What kind of thinking are you doing if it is not based on the laws of physics/the universe around us?

 

[Hedshaker]

The expansion of time and space clearly contradicts that there was no space time to expand into.

--Dave

So there as always been time and space then? What about energy? Possibly in some unknown form at this time. Possible?

Edit: The point is, just because the universe as we know it began with the Big Bang event, that doesn't mean that existence it self had a beginning.

Maybe there never was a beginning.

 

[noguru]

Oh and by the way Daft_Dave, this is not "your thread".

 

[doloresistere]

This is not a new direction. You seemed to doubt whether we are governed by the laws of physics/the universe. I asked you "Do you claim we are not governed by the laws of physics/unviverse?" You answered "yes" to that. I am simply now asking you to support your claim. Will you support your claim, or admit that you were wrong?

:think:

What kind of thinking are you doing if it is not based on the laws of physics/the universe around us?

Our actions are driven by our thoughts and our thoughts are driven by a supernatural soul, albeit thoughts could not occur without a brain to process them. Both hitler and mother teresa had basically the same brain as the rest of humanity and yet one was evil and another good. If our thoughts are purely driven from mechanistic means, there should not be this wide divergence.

 

[Hedshaker]

Our actions are driven by our thoughts and our thoughts are driven by a supernatural soul, albeit thoughts could not occur without a brain to process them. Both hitler and mother teresa had basically the same brain as the rest of humanity and yet one was evil and another good. If our thoughts are purely driven from mechanistic means, there should not be this wide divergence.

Why not?

Edit: also, "a supernatural soul" is not an established fact. Asserting it as such does not make it so.

 

[gcthomas]

No, you can just give me your answer. It should be "easy" for you to do.

--Dave

Basic physics governs atoms, chemistry molecules and reactions, biochemistry the processes of life, neuroscience links the cellular processes to your thought processes.

There is no evidence that will stand up to scrutiny that indicates the laws of physics don't govern your choices and decisions. It is also very clear that small changes in your brain chemistry change your decisions, judgements and desires.

Are you immune to changes in your brain chemistry? Or does chemistry (which is applied physics at the root of it) rule the roost?

 

[gcthomas]

If our thoughts are purely driven from mechanistic means, there should not be this wide divergence.

Different atoms arranged in different ways.

 

[noguru]

Our actions are driven by our thoughts and our thoughts are driven by a supernatural soul, albeit thoughts could not occur without a brain to process them. Both hitler and mother teresa had basically the same brain as the rest of humanity and yet one was evil and another good. If our thoughts are purely driven from mechanistic means, there should not be this wide divergence.

I will grant you the "supernatural soul" aspect of this for the sake of argument. But can you tell me where that "supernatural soul" is seated? Where does the rubber meet the road, would you call that "the mind"?

Also, I was not claiming that our thoughts are "purely driven" from mechanistic means. I do not know enough about the universe to say that. I would love to see an example of a thought that is independent of a "mind", however.

Are thoughts that are not governed by the laws of physics/the universe even valid? How would you test the validity of such thoughts?

 

[DFT_Dave]

Basic physics governs atoms, chemistry molecules and reactions, biochemistry the processes of life, neuroscience links the cellular processes to your thought processes.

There is no evidence that will stand up to scrutiny that indicates the laws of physics don't govern your choices and decisions. It is also very clear that small changes in your brain chemistry change your decisions, judgements and desires.

Are you immune to changes in your brain chemistry? Or does chemistry (which is applied physics at the root of it) rule the roost?

So I guess you agree with Nietzsche.

Everyone is programed one way or another and freedom of thought and action is impossible.

In atheistic science only matter effects matter. In theistic science non-material soul and spirit can effect matter as well as matter effecting matter.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Oh and by the way Daft_Dave, this is not "your thread".

Yes, follow my posts.

--Dave

 

[noguru]

Yes, follow my posts.

--Dave

I reserve the right to respond when I see fit. Most of the content of your posts is rubbish. I will not waste my time with that.

Will you support your claim now, or admit you were wrong?

 

[Hedshaker]

There is only one science method. It's called, emm.... science. Theists who do science adhere to the same principles as atheists who do science. Unless they are doing pseudo-science.