can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

Clete

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c. moore,

A Case for Christ is an excellent book. Good choice!

Another EXCELLENT book that will not give physical evidence but will equip you with outstanding phylosophical and logical arguments for the existence of God is "Can Man Live Without God" by Ravi Zacharias. In fact pretty much everything he's ever written would be a great resource.

Another source for terrific arguments for the existence of God is right here on TOL. The Battle Royale between Bob Enyart and Zakath is simply the best debate on the issue I have ever seen, and I haven't even read it all!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

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Aimiel,

As a corollary to the question asked by Knight allow me to ask you a question that I asked you almost a year ago.

If I told you that I got a visit in the spirit from Jesus Himself and He told me that by His sovereign right, He has decided to change the rules so that now everything about the gospel is the same except that from now on, no one will be saved except on every third Thursday of the month and only after 7:03pm local time.

How would you know I was lying?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

firechyld

New member
c.moore, the Mythological Jesus vs Historical Jesus debate is a huge one that's been going on for a long time. There's no easy answer.

In short... no, there is no empirical evidence of the existence of a historical Jesus. It cannot (at this time) be proven that the man ever lived, much less performed the deeds credited to him.

That said, there is also not enough evidence or even lack thereof to definitely state that the historical Jesus didn't exist. At this point in time, the jury is still out, and will remain out until such time as proof for either stance is discovered.

The question isn't really "Can we prove that Jesus existed?"... it's "Does the fact that we can't prove his existence matter to modern Christians?" Does it alter your beliefs that you can't point to archaeological evidence, or are you simply looking for something to convert another individual? Bear in mind that proof of historical Jesus, were it to be found, doesn't necessarily prove that he was any of the things Christians believe him to be.

As for Moses, there's even less evidence of him. The Egyptians have no record of anything even vaguely resembling the Exodus. *shrug* Make of that what you will...
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by Mustard Seed

In other words, while reason and logic are not to trump faith to exercise, as it's called, 'blind faith' (I would dispute such as being able to be called faith) is not wise a wise course nor one, that I believe, can ever lead to salvation.
I don't believe that I have, or was promoting such 'blind' faith.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by Knight

Generally speaking... blind faith is for idiots!
Agreed.
God doesn't expect us to have blind faith.
I believe that's a given.
He expects us to have faith based the evidence He has given us.
This is where you have to admit that either you believe or you don't. Those who don't accept that The Word of God is inspired by God, true or relevant don't 'see' the evidence that weighs so heavily upon our hearts.
Does God's word (the Bible) play a vital role in our faith?
Of course it does, it is the foundation. We take Him at His Word, and trust that He is True, though every man who ever lived (except, of course, Jesus) might have been a liar.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Aimiel
Of course it does, it is the foundation. We take Him at His Word, and trust that He is True, though every man who ever lived (except, of course, Jesus) might have been a liar.
OK... well I guess I misunderstood your earlier point.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

If I told you that I got a visit in the spirit from Jesus Himself and He told me that by His sovereign right, He has decided to change the rules so that now everything about the gospel is the same except that from now on, no one will be saved except on every third Thursday of the month and only after 7:03pm local time.

How would you know I was lying?
The same way I refuted your other 'points' in this thread, The Word of God, which doesn't change, and will abide forever: He said that He watches over His Word to perform it, and that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved, not whosoever believes upon certain days ONLY. Also, I would suggest that you need to exercise better discernment, because the spirit that spoke to you was an evil spirit, pretending to be The Lord.
 

Rolf Ernst

New member
Clete--your post #13: I am sorry about your not understanding straight Bible doctrine, Clete. I know it must be difficult to always be running into verses which do not fit in with your misconceptions of Scripture; nevertheless you can't make those troublesome verses disappear. It is forever established in heaven that "no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Mt.11:27

There are many other texts which teach the same thing both in the Old Testament and the New Testament, but I know it would be fruitless to spend more time with you. People of the "openess" persuasion are notorious for ignoring verses. They are content to hold a view of scripture which leaves many texts in tension with one another. We Reformed people find that unacceptable. Thanks for calling me a heretic. I would not want to be identified with your doctrines.
 

Clete

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Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Clete--your post #13: I am sorry about your not understanding straight Bible doctrine, Clete. I know it must be difficult to always be running into verses which do not fit in with your misconceptions of Scripture; nevertheless you can't make those troublesome verses disappear. It is forever established in heaven that "no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Mt.11:27

There are many other texts which teach the same thing both in the Old Testament and the New Testament, but I know it would be fruitless to spend more time with you. People of the "openess" persuasion are notorious for ignoring verses. They are content to hold a view of scripture which leaves many texts in tension with one another. We Reformed people find that unacceptable. Thanks for calling me a heretic. I would not want to be identified with your doctrines.

Both you and Aimiel have no business on a board where serious discussions of theology take place. You are not only both intellectually dishonest and incapable of reading but are also a straight up liar.

The only reason to react this way to what I said is because you know you have no hope in defeating me in an honest debate. Further, I have never, nor will I ever intentionally ignore any Scripture nor do you have any evidence to the contrary, you are a liar and a hypocrite. For it is you who profane God with your disgusting theology that makes God the author of evil, and more than that you are proud of it! While, all the while burying your head in the sand and ignoring verse after verse after verse that shows the contrary.

Further still, I never called you a heretic. I was very careful to word my post in such a way as to encourage you to clarify yourself but you apparently can't read well enough to have detected that. I said IF and THEN and posted 2 possibilities. I of course can assume which you chose but that is beside the point. If you were half a man you would simply have answered the question and defended your position. As it is, you have proven yourself to be a small minded child that should spend more time in Sunday School class being read to about Noah’s ark and watching Veggi Tale cartoons.
If you decide to grow up and act your age, I'd still be interested to know whether you think any such person exists that Jesus does not want to reveal himself to? And why you would not consider the Bible itself as His having revealed Himself to everyone, or at least to everyone who can either read or be read to?

And Aimiel, what the hell are you doing agreeing with Rolf when you don't even believe that the Bible is the standard of truth? What would you care if I ignored Bible verses or not? Shouldn't I follow the leading of the Spirit within? As far as you are concerned if it feels right it is right. That makes me want to puke!

Resting in Him,
:Clete:
 
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Turbo

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Originally posted by firechyld

The Egyptians have no record of anything even vaguely resembling the Exodus. *shrug* Make of that what you will...
I take it you've never heard of the Ipuwer papyrus. Even the unbeliever who wrote the preface on the page linked cannot deny the similarities between this Egyptian account and the Exodus account:
Fringe historians often compare the content of this papyrus with Exodus, the second book of the Bible. Similarities between Egyptian texts and the Bible are easily found, and it is reasonable to assume Egyptian influence on the Hebrews, given their at times close contacts. But to conclude from such parallelisms that the Ipuwer Papyrus describes Egypt at the time of the Exodus, requires a leap of faith not everybody is willing to make.
I submit that this author is the one making a great leap of faith.




Comparing the two accounts:
The Ten Plagues - Live From Egypt
 
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ButcherABC

New member
Originally posted by Turbo

I take it you've never heard of the Ipuwer papyrus. Even the unbeliever who wrote the preface on the page linked cannot deny the similarities between this Egyptian account and the Exodus account:

Before I read this document, I want an answer to the following. Do you judge this papyrus as similar to the Exodus by the same standard Christians use when they deny similarities between Christian beliefs and those of other religions of the time, and the same standard by which they deny similarities between the tale of Noah and the Epic of Gilgamesh? IOW, are you using a double standard in claiming this papyrus as evidence for the Exodus?
 

Daniel50

New member
Can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

Can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

Originally posted by Crow

Suits him, doesn't it?

Maybe it was predestined! :bannana:

wait a minute......:noid:

predestined? :think:

.......:shocked:



:jump:
 

c.moore

New member
firechyld

In short... no, there is no empirical evidence of the existence of a historical Jesus. It cannot (at this time) be proven that the man ever lived, much less performed the deeds credited to him.

That said, there is also not enough evidence or even lack thereof to definitely state that the historical Jesus didn't exist. At this point in time, the jury is still out, and will remain out until such time as proof for either stance is discovered.



Quote :

So I guess my question is answer , the unbelievers, and mythology teacher has a greater range of evidence that Jesus never existed, and can be a fairy tale or just made up from other pagan religion and pre ancient time story`s which was never true including the story of Adam and Eve.
 

Turbo

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Originally posted by c.moore

So I guess my question is answer , the unbelievers, and mythology teacher has a greater range of evidence that Jesus never existed, and can be a fairy tale or just made up from other pagan religion and pre ancient time story`s which was never true including the story of Adam and Eve.
Why are you ignoring the evidence presented on this thread? Just because firechyld says there is no evidence doesn't make it so.
 

Mustard Seed

New member
c.moore

A way of looking at the whole thing is similar to what the title of one of the books that was mentioned in this thread implies (I don't exactly remeber the title off hand but it has something to do with demanding an answer/verdict) I've mentioned something on the same not in one of my recent threads. If Jesus Christ and his story, or the Bible in general, were not real then there's a TON of explaining to be done for the impact etc. I likened it to an example given by Hugh Nibley in one of his books. He talks about the recent controversy over William Shakespear and how many are questioning his legitimacy as the author of all those works. Now whether it was one man that wrote those plays sonnets etc or if it was a group of men it was still an INCREDIBLE WORK. Essentially if it was miraculous and unbelievable for him to have fashioned those works then what makes it any less unbelievable that a seceret society of intellects that lived in the same area did it? Either scenerio you have to deal with that which was produced. Regardless of the source of the Bible or it's stories those who call it merely a fabel have so much explaining to do that it may actually complicate, and render harder to explain, the existance of the Bible or the history of Jesus Christ.
 
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