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Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

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  • DFT_Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

    To simply my answer, I will simplify your question: Since God is eternal, He knows all things that are, have been or will be. Is this true?

    Yes
    And how do you define eternal, and how does God being eternal help him to know what is going on in a world that is temporal--not eternal?

    --Dave

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  • oatmeal
    replied
    Originally posted by ghost View Post
    Calvinism would have us believe that since God is eternal, He knows all things that are, have been or will be. Is this true?

    Have I represented Calvinism's view correctly?
    To simply my answer, I will simplify your question:

    that since God is eternal, He knows all things that are, have been or will be. Is this true?
    Yes

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  • DFT_Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by DFT_Dave View Post
    There is a history of events for God. He created the world, flooded it with water, sent Christ to walk this earth, etc., in a sequence/chronolgy, and anyone who thinks differently is an idiot.

    --Dave
    Idiot is not what I want to really say. It is absurdly irrational, as Christians, who believe in the Bible as the Word of God and not a collection of myths, to say that the God we believe in does not do things in sequence. His existence before there was nothing else but the Trinity, his creation of the world and active participation within it must be sequential and chronological or it is a myth.

    --Dave

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  • DFT_Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by Sheila B View Post

    We cannot fathom what it is to be outside of time. There is no time-sequence in God.
    There is a history of events for God. He created the world, flooded it with water, sent Christ to walk this earth, etc., in a sequence/chronolgy, and anyone who thinks differently is an idiot.

    --Dave

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  • Delmar
    replied
    Originally posted by Sheila B View Post
    We cannot fathom what it is to be outside of time. There is no time-sequence in God.
    Why do you automatically assume that something you can't fathom, must be the truth?
    Last edited by Delmar; November 22nd, 2011, 04:51 AM.

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  • Lighthouse
    replied
    Originally posted by Binyamin View Post
    God operates outside of the barriers of time that we operate under. That is part of the creation that is in order for humainity.
    I would assert that it is now, however, even though God knows all things that are going to happen.
    Scripture?

    I also believe completely in free will and find it throughout Scripture. Because it's known by Him doesn't necessarily mean it's caused by Him.
    While I agree God having such knowledge would not necessitate His being the cause, the fact that He had the knowledge, and was able to have it, would necessitate that the object of said knowledge could not change therefore we could not do anything other than what He knew we would; so where is free will?

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  • godrulz
    replied
    Originally posted by Sheila B View Post
    We cannot fathom what it is to be outside of time. There is no time-sequence in God.
    Every page of Scripture clearly shows the personal, living God acting is sequence, succession, duration. Timelessness is an incoherent philosophical concept not found in Scripture.

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  • Sheila B
    replied
    Originally posted by ghost View Post
    Isn't it limiting God's ability to think a new thought if He knows everything eternally?
    We cannot fathom what it is to be outside of time. There is no time-sequence in God.

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  • godrulz
    replied
    Originally posted by Binyamin View Post
    Respectfully, as an Open Theist you believe that God actually doesn't know the future?

    So with that opinion how in the world could God fortell it through prophecy?
    He does not know it exhaustively, because the future is at least partially open/unsettled.

    Is. 46 and 48 show that God settles some of the future by His ability, but it cannot be extrapolated to prove prescience nor that God settles all of the future. Prophecy deals with specific things, not every mundane and moral choice in the universe. God can influence, orchestrate fulfillment of prophecy. Prophecy can also be conditional, so God responds according to the choices that are not settled/foreknown.

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  • Binyamin
    replied
    Originally posted by godrulz View Post
    Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not compatible with libertarian free will.

    The proof of this takes more than a post, but it is out there.
    Respectfully, as an Open Theist you believe that God actually doesn't know the future?

    So with that opinion how in the world could God fortell it through prophecy?

    Ps 139:16
    "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
    And in Your book they all were written,
    The days fashioned for me,
    When as yet there were none of them."

    Leave a comment:


  • godrulz
    replied
    Originally posted by Binyamin View Post
    God operates outside of the barriers of time that we operate under. That is part of the creation that is in order for humainity.
    I would assert that it is now, however, even though God knows all things that are going to happen.

    I also believe completely in free will and find it throughout Scripture. Because it's known by Him doesn't necessarily mean it's caused by Him.
    Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not compatible with libertarian free will.

    The proof of this takes more than a post, but it is out there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Joe Lang
    replied
    Originally posted by Binyamin View Post
    I also believe completely in free will and find it throughout Scripture. Because it's known by Him doesn't necessarily mean it's caused by Him.
    This should be clear to all

    Leave a comment:


  • Binyamin
    replied
    God operates outside of the barriers of time that we operate under. That is part of the creation that is in order for humainity.
    I would assert that it is now, however, even though God knows all things that are going to happen.

    I also believe completely in free will and find it throughout Scripture. Because it's known by Him doesn't necessarily mean it's caused by Him.

    Leave a comment:


  • DFT_Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by Lon View Post

    Comparative to the time-line we are asking about, He is relational to (interacting with) it, but has other things going on with Him besides our specific linear duration.
    Isaiah 43:15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.” 16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea, a path in the mighty waters, 17 who brings forth chariot and horse, army and warrior; they lie down, they cannot rise, they are extinguished, quenched like a wick: 18 “Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert."

    Isaiah 46:8 “Remember this and consider, recall it to mind, you transgressors, 9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ 11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it. 12 “Hearken to me, you stubborn of heart, you who are far from deliverance: 13 I bring near my deliverance, it is not far off, and my salvation will not tarry; I will put salvation in Zion, for Israel my glory.”

    Isaiah 48:3 “The former things I declared of old, they went forth from my mouth and I made them known; then suddenly I did them and they came to pass. 4 Because I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead brass, 5 I declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, ‘My idol did them, my graven image and my molten image commanded them.’ 6 “You have heard; now see all this; and will you not declare it? From this time forth I make you hear new things, hidden things which you have not known. 7 They are created now, not long ago;"

    Isaiah 48:17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go. 18 O that you had hearkened to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea; 19 your offspring would have been like the sand, and your descendants like its grains; their name would never be cut off or destroyed from before me.”

    It sure looks like God does things "linear", from the past to the present, just like we do. God says he has a future of things he has not yet done. God even says things could have been different for Israel, had they obeyed.

    --Dave
    Last edited by DFT_Dave; November 8th, 2011, 05:39 AM.

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  • DFT_Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by Lon View Post

    "Relational to, unrestricted by"?
    So of course my answers:

    Yes. But it isn't when He was created (he wasn't created). Comparative to the time-line we are asking about, He is relational to (interacting with) it, but has other things going on with Him besides our specific linear duration.

    No. He relates to our time, it isn't His only time because clearly it is at least bi-durational with no beginning but even that assumes a starting point in which to check time going in both directions.

    Dave, it doesn't matter which you want to time. Start the stopwatch now (you don't need two). Now realize, no matter what you are trying to time, you are never going to get to forever in either direction and you are simultaneously looking both ways. When you stop your watch, you have a record of something you timed not just from one direction, but two.
    "Relational to us, unrestricted by time"

    You are saying, in my words, God is timeless and interacts with us in time. How can God, outside of time and space, relate to us, inside of time and space? If God enters or interacts with time and space, by definition and logic, he is not timeless and spaceless. A timeless spaceless God suffers "impassability", we cannot leave time and space and he cannot pass through it. God cannot be "timeless" and "in time", at the "same time".

    Your statement violates the law of identity (defining what a thing is), the law of non-contradiction (a thing cannot be and not be at the same time and relationship), and the law of the excluded middle (a thing is either this or that).

    A truly timeless God also suffers "impassibility". "Aristotle regarded change as inconsistent with perfection, he concluded that God could not be affected by anything outside himself. Furthermore, God engages not in feeling, but thinking, and he himself is the object of his contemplation. God is thus unaffected by the world in any way." http://www.iep.utm.edu/god-west/#SH3h

    The "classic synthesis" of Greek Philosophy and Biblical Revelation defies logic and creates an "irrational faith".

    Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
    Do you think God creates the world, floods it with water, sends Christ to earth, judges the world with fire, all at the same time?
    "No. He relates to our time. Comparative to the time-line we are asking about, He is relational to (interacting with) it, but has other things going on with Him besides our specific linear duration."--Lon

    Just what "other things" does he have going on if not "everything all at once"? If not "everything all at once" then you are saying there is time in God when he does some things "before" and "after" he does "other things".

    Welcome to "Open Theism", we are glad to have you with us. I knew it would only be a matter of "time".

    Dave-- --Lon
    Last edited by DFT_Dave; November 7th, 2011, 07:18 PM.

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