Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

[voltaire]

I think you're compelled to say all kinds of things to people and much of it isn't truth.

I'm predicting three days before your first meltdown and "true" self is revealed.

You are extremely bitter. Ever hear of forgiveness? Sounds like you want him to lose it. If I were in charge of this site, I would ban you right now for trying to provoke a member into bad behavior.

 

[Guyver]

You are extremely bitter. Ever hear of forgiveness? Sounds like you want him to lose it. If I were in charge of this site, I would ban you right now for trying to provoke a member into bad behavior.

What?

First of all I'm not extremely bitter. At all. That is an extreme overstatement.

You would ban me for trying to provoke a person into bad behavior? What makes you think I'm trying to provoke anyone into anything...because I stated my opinion on a discussion forum?

If a person is provoked into bad behavior because of anything I've said in this thread..then they have issues and lack self control.

Do you know how forgiveness works?

 

[Lon]

Really?

Genesis 2

19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.

Use a concordance, Nick. The word isn't 'to see' as in 'to learn or find out' but 'to see as in 'to observe, enjoy, be near, or view.' English is a difficult language sometimes, to translate accurately, but that is all that is meant by 'to see' here. There is no implication from the word to think that it means 'to find out.'

Genesis 22

12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

And the same here, again the meaning is "whereas I declare," or "Now its known." It is clear that Now wasn't the only time God knew Abraham feared Him. God knew Abraham feared Him right at the outset in bundling up the wood and packing up his servants.

Jeremiah 19

5 they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind

"...neither did it ascend upon my heart..." Again, we must be careful to not uncritically take an English translation's conveyance and stand on a doctrine without first doing a bit of concordance work and comparisons to ensure we are understanding. An open view must do so when asserting these things because the rest of us will surely check what meaning it is supposed to convey.

Every open view scripture I've seen has this weakeness behind it. It is taking a translation in a different direction than the language they are taken from conveys, and of a direction the translation didn't intend to point.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The problem is your incoherent view. Open Theists can explain it in a more biblically, philosophically satisfying way.

Then explain how God can know in advance who will believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess.2:13-14).​

The believer is chosen by God by salvation and that choosing is based on His FOREKNOWLEDGE:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "according" at 1 Peter 1:2 is "in consequence of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So the saved are described as "elect" and their election is "in consequence of" God's foreknowledge.

That completly destroys the teaching of the Open View!

 

[godrulz]

Ghost seems to think that God's knowledge of darkness, ontologically changes God into darkness, which is too horrible to consider, so to remedy this (faulty) possibility, Ghost denies and thereby limits God's knowledge, in an effort to preserve the goodness of God.

But all ghost achieves is a human version of God, which of course constitutes an idol.

Open Theists worship an idol of their own making.

I am never impressed with amateur Calvinists who misunderstand and misrepresent Arminianism or Open Theism.

i.e. what are you talking about half the time?

 

[godrulz]

That's impossible. Do you know what "Holy" means? I'm not trying to get into a fight here. I just think you may not know. God can no more choose to be Holy than He can choose to be God.

Someone is confusing morals/volition with metaphysics/ontology/being. Has Aquinas influenced you?

 

[Lighthouse]

This is what I am trying to say.

No, it's the opposite of what you were trying to say.

God chooses to remain Holy,..

.., He chooses of His own FREEWILL to remain what He is...HOLY.

See.

I said God is free to choose but He is not free to choose to be, or remain, holy. That's what "cannot" means. He is holy; He is not free to choose to be otherwise, so He is not free to choose to remain so.

he also said this:

Just because God is free to choose does NOT mean He would or could.

I hope you get it soon.

You're an idiot.

I dont think you can read well.

He said this:

and, I said this:

Just because God is free to choose does NOT mean He would or could.

I hope you get it soon.

Take away the choice and you make God a robotic entity, and that is not the God I know and serve; that is the calvinistic God.

I do NOT believe God could.

I said that.

I DO believe He has the choice.

So, did he..unless he wants to say that what he said was not what he said.

I am not afraid to admit error, Ghost, but you did not read it well.

Seriously, you're a complete moron.

Someone is confusing morals/volition with metaphysics/ontology/being. Has Aquinas influenced you?

So are you.

Uh....ahem. Excellent advice.

Kindof reminds me of the whole pull the log out of your own eye thing...

Except that he's not wrong.

 

[DPMartin]

Oh, here we go, another idiot who tosses all logic aside when he gets caught saying something stupid. You're type are a dime a dozen.

You cannot say that God is everywhere and then say that He is not everywhere and have people conclude that this is "God's logic" not man's.

The fact is, you are stupid, and even "God's logic" reveals it.

Sorry you see it that way ghost. For that which is of the Lord is life giving, and your animosity demonstrated here toward those who would offer that which they might know and understand about the Lord their God, is truly not of the Lord is it?

To those who would honestly seek to know and understand the Truth of Lord their God in the name of Jesus Christ, He shows loving kindness to, of which you don’t show God’s logic therein. God’s logic my friend is that we don’t prove God, or who or what God is. He proves us and who or what we are to Him.

It is simple, when the Presence of God moved on the face of the waters he seen darkness and void. He tells us through scripture that there was darkness and void therefore he tells us the condition of creation without His Presence and His Word in His Presence. For the first thing He says is let there be light. He refuses to dwell in darkness and dwells in the fulfillment of His Word, the Light.

thanks for the replies

 

[godrulz]

God's foreknowledge is based upon His will and holy purposes . . . not vice-versa.

Nang

This is one biblical motif, but there is another motif that Open Theism affirms (because it is biblical), but Calvinism dismisses as figurative to retain their preconceived, flawed view.

 

[godrulz]

Bah . . .

There is no such thing as "unknowable" to God. God knows all.

Yes, God knows everything and is ignorant of nothing. Just as there are things that are not doable for an omnipotent God (making married bachelors, creating rocks too heavy too lift, ceasing to be God, etc.), so there are things unknowable for an omniscient God (where Yoda is, EDF of future free will contingencies in light of LFW, etc.).

We agree that God is omniscient, but disagree as to determinism vs contingencies (i.e. God correctly knows reality as it is so He rightly distinguishes possible vs actual, etc.).

 

[godrulz]

Then why have you failed to do so?

We are waiting . . .

I have studied OT for over 30 years. Before you dismiss it, you should be able to articulate it fairly.

 

[godrulz]

Justication (forgiveness) is a legal rendering, not an emotional or mental gymnastic.

Yes, forensic, but some thing God must be made more willing to forgive (appease). The issues are governmental/public justice, not personal, retributive justice.

We probably basically agree on justification (but not the order of repentant faith/just.).

 

[Jordan Fontenot]

Ego Eimi: this is how God constantly refers to Himself. He is all the things He says He is. Trying to say that He is some things He says He is and not others is cowardace and fence sitting. If you believe that I guess you have a lot in common with Laodicea.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Redemption was established by the Everlasting Covenant between Father and Son, prior to the decree to create. That is the Supralapsarian view. Redemption was "known" before anything else was put into place, including creation.

Here is the logical order of divine decrees in eternity:

1. God the Father unconditionally elected to redeem a people for God the Son, to share in His inherited glory, to the glory of His name.

2. This redemption was decreed to come through the Son's sacrificial and substitutional work on the cross.

3. God decreed that all men would fall short of the glory of God.

4. God decreed to create and manifest these purposes, to the glory of His name.

The above all were temporally brought about in time and proven in reverse order:

1. God created.

2. Man fell short of the glory of God.

3. Christ redeemed a people by His cross work.

4. These redeemed people share Christ's inheritance in glory.

Thus, according to this (very simplified) explanation, there is no room for God not knowing any detail of His purposes and intents. What was decreed, ordained and determined before time, was perfectly achieved in time. Nothing has ever been hidden from His sight, or beyond His remedy and ability to extend grace and everlasting life.

Nang

I'm sure you know that a "timeless God" does not "do" or "know" anything before or after anything else, right?

"Redemption was "known" before anything else was put into place, including creation."

"What was decreed, ordained and determined before time".​

If God knew "redemption" before he created the world then there is time in God, a sequence of activity. Right?

I take it that you mean that everything was decreed, ordained and determined "before" God created the world and time". If this is so, then you are saying there was a time in God when he decreed, ordained and determined everything, that came "before" God actually created the world and time.

--Dave

 

[ghost]

Someone is confusing morals/volition with metaphysics/ontology/being. Has Aquinas influenced you?

No, the word "Holy" has. A term you personally wish to redefine in a way that is completely foreign to the Bible.

 

[Lon]

I'm sure you know that a "timeless God" does not "do" or "know" anything before or after anything else, right?

"Redemption was "known" before anything else was put into place, including creation."

"What was decreed, ordained and determined before time".
​

If God knew "redemption" before he created the world then there is time in God, a sequence of activity. Right?

I take it that you mean that everything was decreed, ordained and determined "before" God created the world and time". If this is so, then you are saying there was a time in God when he decreed, ordained and determined everything, that came "before" God actually created the world and time.

--Dave

Whether or not that is the case, such automatically has God both within and without the consideration. That is, you are aquiescing by the question that this is true. See what I mean?

 

[DFT_Dave]

In my estimation, we are guessing because we are trying to apprehend the mind and purposes of God (finite cannot apprehend infinite). Rather, I would redirect some of these questions for a different appreciation:

1) God is infinite which means He is beyond our ability to completely grasp. My dog knows to go potty outside, but I don't think she knows why. She can only comprehend so much with what God has given her. We likewise, have finite limitations.

2) Nothing is outside of God. This is a complete paradigm shift in our thinking from ourselves. We think mostly about things completely outside of ourselves in finiteness because we are finite. It is natural for us to do so, but God has given us glimpses and directions for how to think of Him.

Philosophically, that is, by our reasoning, we understand that nothing exists without God. As the scripture tells us that all things consist by Him, the extent of our actions and thoughts must flow from His sustaining them. Whatever proceeds, then, must necessarily originate in Him as the source of all things. As I said, we think about things as separate from ourselves. Beside God, there is nothing. He is the whole of His being.

In Him

-Lon

We are made in God's image and likeness, your dog is not not made in your image and likeness. We are not to God like a dog is to us. Although, I'm afraid that some pet owner's would argue they have a deeper relationship with their pet than with their fellow man and sadly that might be the case. But if it is, then that person has diminished him or her self. And anyone who compares God to him or herself as a dog is compared to us, has also diminished themself.

Since we are made in the "image and likeness" of God, we should understand that we are very much like God and not as unlike him as you suggest. We are finite means we are like God in a limited way in what God is like in an unlimited way.

Because all things were created "by God", all thing consist "because of" him, not "in him".

"Whatever proceeds, then, must necessarily originate in Him as the source of all things. As I said, we think about things as separate from ourselves. Beside God, there is nothing. He is the whole of His being."​

You are a "panentheist" not a "Biblical theist", when you say something like that.

--Dave :dog:

 

[Paulos]

Jeremiah 10:23
I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

Proverbs 20:24
Man’s steps are ordained by the LORD,
How then can man understand his way?​

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

[DFT_Dave]

God does not think as do finite creatures. He is not deliberating. God knows and His knowledge is intuitive--not discursive wherein we as creatures, accrete knowledge proceeding logically from the known to the unknown. God knows in one eternal, all-comprehensive act, not successive.

God's knowledge is is independent, i.e., it does in no way depend upon his creatures or their actions, but solely upon his own infinite intuition of all things possible in the light of his own reason, and of all things actual and future in the light of his own eternal purpose.

A "new thought" for God would mean He did not know, hence was not perfectly omniscient, including knowing all knowable possibilities.

AMR

But, if it is true that God has "perfect knowledge" of all things, wouldn't that mean that God has only "actual knowldge" and that nothing would be "possibilities" for him as it is for us?

--Dave

 

[Nang]

I'm sure you know that a "timeless God" does not "do" or "know" anything before or after anything else, right?

No, not right. God's omniscience transcends time.






















If God knew "redemption" before he created the world then there is time in God, a sequence of activity. Right?

I take it that you mean that everything was decreed, ordained and determined "before" God created the world and time". If this is so, then you are saying there was a time in God when he decreed, ordained and determined everything, that came "before" God actually created the world and time.

--Dave[/QUOTE]