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Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by ghost View Post
    Calvinism teaches that God not only knows all things evil but brings them all to pass.

    Where did evil come from before God created the angels and man? Is evil eternal?
    I don't believe "evil" is eternal. I believe God knew what evil was eternally.



    I also have come to see that Him knowing what 'evil' was eternally has nothing to do with Him being responsible for evil..Evil was born when the first sin was created/evil came into existance in the realm of God when lucifer fell. It was the thought and action of lucifer that evil was born.

    I believe that God allowed His creation freewill, to choose. It was the wrong choice by lucifer that evil was born.

    I believe that if God did not allow freewill to choose, that He would be 'an evil god'....because, the evil we see today, which had it's beginning with lucifer, through freewill, would be God's fault.

    There is no denying evil exists. God did NOT create it. Lucifer did...but, God did not force him too. He simply allowed Lucifer to have freewill, and without freewill, it would be God that is the Author of evil, and that is not the God I know and serve.

    It seems to me that many are ok with thinking that God created evil. When you understand that 'evil is not created' until it is acted upon, you come to realise it could only be due to freewill..

    ..but, many wrongly interpret it...and, make God the Author of evil...even by claiming there was no freewill, they make God the worker of iniquity.

    Sad state of affairs, if you ask me. I do not know clearly what calvinism upholds on the matter though.


    I hope that explains it how I view it.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by graceandpeace View Post
      I don't believe "evil" is eternal. I believe God knew what evil was eternally.
      I know what you are saying, but if it is in the mind of God (as all things would be, if God knows all things) then how is it not eternal? If God has seen evil eternally, evil exists in the mind of God eternally, even if it is not God performing the evil.



      I also have come to see that Him knowing what 'evil' was eternally has nothing to do with Him being responsible for evil.
      Agreed. Nevertheless, evil would be ever present in God's mind, including every destestable act and thought of man eternally, if God knows all things.
      Evil was born when the first sin was created/evil came into existance in the realm of God when lucifer fell. It was the thought and action of lucifer that evil was born.
      That may be true. I won't disagree.

      I believe that God allowed His creation freewill, to choose. It was the wrong choice by lucifer that evil was born.
      You could be right

      I believe that if God did not allow freewill to choose, that He would be 'an evil god'....because, the evil we see today, which had it's beginning with lucifer, through freewill, would be God's fault.
      Yes, sin is choosing independence.

      There is no denying evil exists. God did NOT create it. Lucifer did...but, God did not force him too. He simply allowed Lucifer to have freewill, and without freewill, it would be God that is the Author of evil, and that is not the God I know and serve.
      Nor I

      It seems to me that many are ok with thinking that God created evil. When you understand that 'evil is not created' until it is acted upon, you come to realise it could only be due to freewill..
      okay

      ..but, many wrongly interpret it...and, make God the Author of evil...even by claiming there was no freewill, they make God the worker of iniquity.
      okay


      I hope that explains it how I view it.
      Yes, very similar to mine. However, the idea that God knows all evil perpetually in though and deed makes, at the very least, evil eternally in the mind of God, having never not existed, and existing perpetually throughout eternity.

      I find that belief quite disturbing, along with the belief by some who have suggested that we will eternally have the knowledge of not only our own evil thoughts and acts, but those of others.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by graceandpeace View Post
        I don't believe "evil" is eternal. I believe God knew what evil was eternally.
        Evil is a privation, a lack of God's purpose. We could assume that God has always known what happens outside of His desire. I don't think it a major issue but such can affect thinking in other areas of our theology as it does with God's omniscience and whether He learns something new.

        Originally posted by graceandpeace View Post
        It seems to me that many are ok with thinking that God created evil. When you understand that 'evil is not created' until it is acted upon, you come to realise it could only be due to freewill..
        Some, I don't think many.

        Originally posted by graceandpeace View Post
        ..but, many wrongly interpret it...and, make God the Author of evil...even by claiming there was no freewill, they make God the worker of iniquity.

        Sad state of affairs, if you ask me. I do not know clearly what calvinism upholds on the matter though.


        I hope that explains it how I view it.
        Calvin believed in free will, just not to the extent most assume it. It is ever true that when sinners, we are 'free' from God, in bondage to sin and that believers are free from sin and bound happily to our Creator. As such, free will is qualified in our view and we see it free in only certain and specific aspects. We don't believe the will is ever entirely free (of course most of us agree with this specific dilineation). So then, when a Calvinist is saying no free-will, he is specifically not saying in all ways it is not free, but rather that for specific discussions, we would disagree with the freedom expressed. I.E. we are not free as sinners to follow after God until sin is taken care of. We are not free to do as we like as believers because we are bound to Christ's will and etc.
        -Lon
        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

        ? Yep

        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by ghost View Post
          Yes, very similar to mine. However, the idea that God knows all evil perpetually in though and deed makes, at the very least, evil eternally in the mind of God, having never not existed, and existing perpetually throughout eternity.
          A perfect God has a perfect knowledge of evil, that is, He can know of its existence without it tainting anything of Him at all.
          2Co 5:21 For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

          Originally posted by ghost View Post
          I find that belief quite disturbing, along with the belief by some who have suggested that we will eternally have the knowledge of not only our own evil thoughts and acts, but those of others.
          My speculation further: We will retain knowledge but it will change/morph, such that I believe I agree with you to an extent, it will become something else as we obtain the righteousness of God.

          1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
          1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as He is pure.

          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

          ? Yep

          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Lon View Post

            Calvin believed in free will, just not to the extent most assume it. It is ever true that when sinners, we are 'free' from God, in bondage to sin and that believers are free from sin and bound happily to our Creator. As such, free will is qualified in our view and we see it free in only certain and specific aspects. We don't believe the will is ever entirely free (of course most of us agree with this specific dilineation). So then, when a Calvinist is saying no free-will, he is specifically not saying in all ways it is not free, but rather that for specific discussions, we would disagree with the freedom expressed.
            Does Nang and AMR agree with this?

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
              A "new thought" for God would mean He did not know, hence was not perfectly omniscient, including knowing all knowable possibilities.

              AMR
              Jeremiah 19

              4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),


              Originally posted by Lon View Post
              "To see what he would name them?" -No
              Because God gave man dominion (responsibility) over them.
              How does that support the open view?
              Yes. It was not decreed beforehand. The Bible clearly states this more than once that God has not hashed out every single detail in advance. The decision is up to us to trust him. God did not know what the animals were called. Thanks for the answer AMR nor Nang wanted to give.
              Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

              Titus 1

              For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

              Ephesians 5

              11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by ghost View Post
                Did, now what?
                Sorry. Meant post #45. I would copy and paste the statements that imply your concerns but I only have access to my phone today to make replies.
                "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                Gordon H. Clark

                "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                Charles Spurgeon

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Nick M View Post
                  Jeremiah 19

                  4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

                  Was God lying when he said this? Even if someone believes that it is saying that it did not originate with Him, God says it did not come into His mind. If He knows all things eternally, then it is always present in His mind.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    The weakest God is the Calvinist version. The one that can not interact, react, and change courses inside of his creation. Of course he didn't lie. He never thought a pervsersion like that.
                    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                    Titus 1

                    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                    Ephesians 5

                    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ghost View Post
                      Does Nang and AMR agree with this?
                      I believe we are all volitional creatures with God-given moral agency with which we are responsible and accountable before God to submit our human wills to His sovereign will.

                      AMR will state the same a bit differently. None of us believe men are so free-willed that one can act or make choices autonomously from God.

                      Nang
                      "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                      " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                      Gordon H. Clark

                      "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                      Charles Spurgeon

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nang View Post
                        Sorry. Meant post #45. I would copy and paste the statements that imply your concerns but I only have access to my phone today to make replies.
                        And? The point I made (am making) is that God is never separated from evil if evil is eternally in the mind of God. It is part of Him, not that He is part of it. I, of course, do not believe that evil is eternally in the mind of God, nor will it be for those in Christ.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Nang View Post
                          I believe we are all volitional creatures with God-given moral agency with which we are responsible and accountable before God to submit our human wills to His sovereign will.

                          AMR will state the same a bit differently. None of us believe men are so free-willed that one can act or make choices autonomously from God.

                          Nang
                          Then you disagree with what Lon said?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ghost View Post
                            Then you disagree with what Lon said?
                            No I do not disagree with Lon. I take a stronger stand against the post-modern teachings of "free" will than Lon or even Calvin, who when he referred to the will of man, did so with a different understanding of the issue that as it has developed and morphed in our day.

                            Nang
                            "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                            " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                            Gordon H. Clark

                            "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                            Charles Spurgeon

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Nang View Post
                              No I do not disagree with Lon.
                              Neither do I. I agree fully with what I quoted from him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nang View Post
                                I believe we are all volitional creatures with God-given moral agency with which we are responsible and accountable before God to submit our human wills to His sovereign will.

                                AMR will state the same a bit differently. None of us believe men are so free-willed that one can act or make choices autonomously from God.

                                Nang
                                Contradictory statement. Just like a politician. Your conclusion is still wrong.

                                None of us believe men are so free-willed that one can act or make choices autonomously from God
                                Genesis 3

                                17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:


                                Once again, the Bible defeats the "theories" of calvinism.
                                Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                                Titus 1

                                For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                                Ephesians 5

                                11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                                Comment

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