Ask Knight (Archived)
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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As godrulz pointed out earlier it appears that my understanding of time is what is causing my (mis)understanding of God's foreknowledge and how it relates to free will.
So I ask you this. Is my understanding of time and how it relates to God the cause of my (mis)understanding?
To clarify what I thought about time. I thought that God exists outside of time and is not subject to it. God can see past, present and future.
Am I wrong about God and time?
Sorry Knight. I will get off your thread since you should be answering...but as confirmation...there are 4 main views of God and His relationship to time and eternity...I do believe an erroneous view of time and eternity leads to the wrong conclusions about foreknowledge and free will. The matter is worth searching out to make sure our ideas are based on Scripture and not Greek philosophical influences on Augustine.
I would have to know the context of specific verses in the book of Revelation. I do not believe in exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies i.e. I do not believe that God knows who will win the 2004 Superbowl trillions of years ago, or if I would have existed or became a Christian trillions of years ago. He has perfect knowledge of the past and present, but only knows some of the future as a certainty (much of Revelation in general terms, because He will bring the Judgments to pass by His ability, regardless of man's choices...at the time of the Revelation, it was present knowledge for God that mankind would persist in rebellion to the end of time and incur the wrath of God...this was not a foregone conclusion in eternity past since God pronounced His creation 'very good' and THEN was later grieved He even made it at...a change in the mind and heart of God due to man's fall). He knows much of the future as a possibility, when it involves moral choices of moral agents (or there is no personal responsibility, love, and freedom).
I affirm God's omniscience, but understand it as knowing all that is knowable (cf. omnipotence is doing all that is doable...cannot do absurd things like make a square triangle= logical contradiction; you may not see this yet, but it is an absurdity to know a future free will choice from eternity past before it is made...if it is known, it is predestined, and not free).
I affirm God's omniscience, but understand it as knowing all that is knowable (cf. omnipotence is doing all that is doable...cannot do absurd things like make a square triangle= logical contradiction; you may not see this yet, but it is an absurdity to know a future free will choice from eternity past before it is made...if it is known, it is predestined, and not free).
Christine
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This seems to tie in with your earlier question:
The verse that you referred to after that question was John 12:32. From the context of that verse, I see that Jesus was talking to the Jews. Jesus was telling them that he will men of all nations to him, not just mainly Jews as it had been in the past. So, to answer your question, the Father draws all men that are predestined.
Knight, I thank you for answering my questions concerning Open Theisim. You have helped me to better understand what they believe. However, as I've said before, I am new to this more Calvinistic view and can not answer all of your questions. Many of them I have been having to ask my father about. Therefore, I, and my father, would perfer it you have any more questions and/or comments, that you contact him. If you desire to do so, you can PM me for his e-mail address.
Knight,
Wasn't sure if you knew that I wanted an answer to my hypothetical situation or not so here it is again:
Lets say that I built a time machine before John Doe was born. With the help of the time machine and a cloaking device, I am able to travel into the future and document every choice that John Doe makes in his life. For this hypothetical situation lets assume that John Doe has free will when making his choices.
After John Doe dies, I go back to the time before John Doe was born. I now know every choice that John Doe will make in his life.
Does John Doe have free will?
Wasn't sure if you knew that I wanted an answer to my hypothetical situation or not so here it is again:
Lets say that I built a time machine before John Doe was born. With the help of the time machine and a cloaking device, I am able to travel into the future and document every choice that John Doe makes in his life. For this hypothetical situation lets assume that John Doe has free will when making his choices.
After John Doe dies, I go back to the time before John Doe was born. I now know every choice that John Doe will make in his life.
Does John Doe have free will?
I would think you are wrong about time.
But first let me state something so you know where I am coming from....
When we talk about "time" in this sense I refer to time as the concept that one event follows another event etc. I am not referring to time in the physical sense i.e., the measurement of time which can be relative.
In other words.... since God is a Living God and since He is logical and rational He experiences one event after another event etc. The Bible never describes God in any other way and furthermore the Bible never makes the claim that God created time.
Therefore... there is no logical or biblical reason to assume God is outside of time.
If you really think about it.... time isn't a "thing". Time is simply a concept. Time is simply the idea that one event follows another event and so on.
God created... and then He rested. He didn't rest and then create and He didn't rest and create simultaneously in some sort of "eternal now". The very reason we experience time the way we do is because we were created in the image and in the reality of a very real, rational, logical God.
My first Mac was a.... what was my first Mac??? I can't remeber now! Something with a "II" in it.
Now I have a underpowered G4
And a Titanium PowerBook.
I need to upgrade something bad!
That doesn't mean God is illogical.
My ways are not my sons way and my sons ways are not my wife's ways. So what?
You continue....
Freak... you are rude.
I have completely gone through this with you 25 times.
I really don't care if you agree with me or not but it is rude to act as if I haven't already addressed this topic with you.
No offense but I am not going to answer any of your questions, I would rather discuss issues with those who are honestly seeking fellowship and discussion. (at least on this thread any ways)
Good I am glad I could be of help.Originally posted by Christine
Knight, I thank you for answering my questions concerning Open Theisim. You have helped me to better understand what they believe. However, as I've said before, I am new to this more Calvinistic view and can not answer all of your questions. Many of them I have been having to ask my father about. Therefore, I, and my father, would perfer it you have any more questions and/or comments, that you contact him. If you desire to do so, you can PM me for his e-mail address.
Thanks for the invite for your father but personally I don't feel compelled to straighten out every man's theology.
If your dad feels comfortable in his view of God..... good for him (and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way).
No.
The instant you saw John Doe make his choices you sealed his future to those choices.
Your time machine became a constraining device upon John Doe's freewill.
If you disagree with that statement please explain to me the following....
After you viewed John's future and came back to the past/present is there any way possible for John Doe to alter that version of the future you saw yet at the same time keep that version of the future accurate?
Back to reality Your hypothetical only highlights the impossibility of time travel. Since time is not a "thing" there is no way possible for it to be traveled in. All of time doesn't exist somewhere external to our ever passing moment. The only thing that actually exists as far as time is concerned is one moment at a time. (however small)
I think I am caught up now.
We agree that according to the defination John Doe would not have free will. Not sure if you saw my original hypothetical situation but I gave that answer for you in that post.
I disagree with you that the time machine itself is the constraining device. I could have traveled into the future, not observed John Doe at all and I think you would agree with me that John Doe would then have free will. Therefore the time machine itself is not the constraining device. Do you agree with me on that?
We both agreed that by the definition of free will, John Doe would not have free will as the only choice he would be able to make is the original choice I observed him making.
Would you say that John Doe had true free will when he made his original choices before I observed him making them?
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