ARCHIVE: Christians only PLEASE - abortion

[Dee Dee Warren]

I never said you were pro-abortion, the bait and switch had to deal with the focus of the subject not whether or not you are pro-life.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Actually, I'm MORE prolife than you are: not only am I against killing the unborn, I'm against killing anybody! I'm anti-death penalty too!

And here is another bait and switch, and actually what would be called the unwarrented expansion of a semantic domain for illegitimate polemical effect. The phrase "pro-life" has historically referred to the abortion issue, specifically to the opposition of abortion as a means of terminating pregnancies at will when the life of the mother is not genuinely in mortal peril.

All it would take then for someone to trump you would be for a vegetarian to come along and say that they are more prolife than you since they are opposed to killing animals, and then for a vegetarian to come along who also opposes pest control who says that they never even step on a flower. That is ridiculous. You are NOT more pro-life than me for the death penalty has nothing to do with this issue.

Additionally, it is an extremely unfair comment in that in pro-lifers opposition to abortion the underlying philosphy is of course the 5th Commandment, do not murder. This is not referring to the simple taking away of a life, for within the rest of the very book that this command appears in God tells His people, in certain circumstances, to kill, kill again, and then kill some more. The fdifference is that murder is the unjustified killing of a person.. however the Bible is very clear that there are justified killings. While you may try and make the erroneous claim that you are more pro-life than me through word games, you can keep it, since I would pefer to be more Biblical.

Lastly, this comment of yours also goes on to possilby show (for I am going to make an assumption here) of some hypocrisy on your part in your jab at Jefferson.

You have claimed to be against all "killing" (seemingly unable or unwilling to make the distinctions that the Bible teaches us to make) and rail against the likes of Jefferson for not bringing publicity to the "murders" of babies who are aborted in cases of the medical correction of ectopic pregnancies. Well where is your outcry??? What are you doing?? Are you actually claiming that you are opposed to such measures?? If you are to be consistent, you would have to say so, and if not, then you have conceded that there are justified incidences, and the foundation for your claim to be more pro-life is smoke and mirrors.

Notice in all of this, I am not questioning that you are opposed to abortion, nor am I questioning you are a Christian. I am seriously questioning your last few comments and your underlying philosophy.

 

[Jefferson]

Originally posted by DaNiceGuy
@Jefferson
That is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that the end result was God's ultimate plan. He knew that she would come to Christ, he knew what would take place in her life. His plan was not for her to be raped,

I don't want this thread to get off topic so I have moved our discussion to the "Attributes of God" folder in a thread I entitled, "DaNiceGuy"

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

For an interesting/brutally honest/provocative tie-in to the death penalty issue, see my comments here:

http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=153051#post153051

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I was just reading an article in Creation magazine that summed up what I was referring to about some of the tactics to oppose abortion that I had been referring to:

It is perhaps tactically important in the antiabortion struggle, for instance, to point to the research that mothers who have abortions are prone to end up with psychiatric difficulties, or breast cancer. But there is always a danger in such 'evidentialist' politicking. Because what if new research showed that mothers who had abortions were on average, happier and healthier? What that somehow much it less wrong to take an innocent human life? Of course not.

 

[themuzicman]

Personally, I have an argument that establishes the fetus as a unique human being, and I argue human rights from there.

It's pretty rock solid.

Michael

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I agree. I object to alleged more PC method of appealing to the woman's selfishness.

 

[themuzicman]

Unfortunately, the selfish argument seems to resonate better in an irrational world.

Michael

 

[firechyld]

It is perhaps tactically important in the antiabortion struggle, for instance, to point to the research that mothers who have abortions are prone to end up with psychiatric difficulties, or breast cancer.

The main issue with using this line of argument (without myself arguing one side or the other) is that the actual research behind the argument is often not publicised.

The breast cancer angle, for example, has its most weightiest evidence behind the simple fact that the more menstrual periods a woman has in her lifetime, the more likely she is to develop breast cancer. Hence, a woman who has a child is statistically less likely to develop breast cancer than one who has an abortion. However, this can also be applied to the theory that a woman on the contraceptive pill who "runs through" and does not have a monthly period is less likely to develop breast cancer, not to mention the fact that vital factors such as hereditary and lifestyle are completely ignored.

*shrug*

All that said, I agree with Dee Dee in that it becomes rather irrelevant when the question is "is abortion immoral?".

firechyld

 

[jeremiah]

To firechyld:
This thread is titled Christians only please; Abortion.
I think that this is your 5th post here? As a Christian man who has been involved in the defense of life; I have been told by numerous pro-abortion, and even some pro-life women, that I can not possibly understand the issue of aborton, and a woman's dilemna. Now is my chance to politely say, firechyld, as a non believer in Jesus Christ, you can not possibly understand the depths of sin, guilt, remorse, repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation, which Dee Dee Warren has beautifully expressed,and which so many of us other Christians have likewise experienced, in the wonderful saving grace and power of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If it be true that I can not understand what a woman experiences in her decision of a lifetime, it could be equally true, that you can not understand what we experience, when we made our decision of this, and the next lifetime. That decision to see ourselves for the sinners we truly are, and to fall upon the judgment and mercy of Jesus on the cross, and to rise with Him in His victory over the Law of sin and death.
If you choose to make the same decision, which both men and women can, and have made, you are welcome back with open arms. There is no need for you to respond here if you choose not to. In this case we are "pro choice".

 

[firechyld]

Originally posted by jeremiah
To firechyld:
This thread is titled Christians only please; Abortion.
I think that this is your 5th post here? As a Christian man who has been involved in the defense of life; I have been told by numerous pro-abortion, and even some pro-life women, that I can not possibly understand the issue of aborton, and a woman's dilemna. Now is my chance to politely say, firechyld, as a non believer in Jesus Christ, you can not possibly understand the depths of sin, guilt, remorse, repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation, which Dee Dee Warren has beautifully expressed,and which so many of us other Christians have likewise experienced, in the wonderful saving grace and power of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If it be true that I can not understand what a woman experiences in her decision of a lifetime, it could be equally true, that you can not understand what we experience, when we made our decision of this, and the next lifetime. That decision to see ourselves for the sinners we truly are, and to fall upon the judgment and mercy of Jesus on the cross, and to rise with Him in His victory over the Law of sin and death.
If you choose to make the same decision, which both men and women can, and have made, you are welcome back with open arms. There is no need for you to respond here if you choose not to. In this case we are "pro choice".

Now would be the bit where I politely say, jeremiah, that I can't see anything in your post that even vaguely refers to anything I actually said.

I've stayed out of the entire debate. All I presented was a slightly deeper understanding of the not-so-helpful nature of comments such as "abortions cause breast cancer", and the ease with which they are disproven... a point initially made by Dee Dee. I fail to see how that is me getting involved in the discussion as to whether or not abortion is a "sin". In fact, the last line of my post reads:

All that said, I agree with Dee Dee in that it becomes rather irrelevant when the question is "is abortion immoral?".

firechyld

 

[cirisme]

Firechyld,
I do remember a story on Fox about a government funded study that says there is a link between breast cancer and abortion. I did a quick search just now, but couldn't find it. I'll do more research tomorrow when I have time and try to get some links to you.

Also, this thread was originally intended to be for Christians only, and think that Dee Dee has made it abundantly clear that's what her wish is.

Now she has teeth and can enforce that "Christians only" on this thread.

 

[jeremiah]

To firechyld:
ROFL On page two you apologized to Dee Dee for butting into the discussion and said you were bowing out for good. You have since posted several times since. Now you are defending yourself. Since you can not be counted on to keep your word, and my request for you to stop posting only encouraged you to post again, you can be assured that this will be my last post to you on this thread. We will see which one of us can keep their word. Unless of course you become a Christian. as I said in my previous post.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I do desire for only Christians to be posting here. However, I have no authority, now or before to "demand" that. This is an open forum and anyone really can post here without official censure. I am only asking for the courtesy to respect my wishes. It has been questioned why then I did not post this on the Exclusively Christian forum... perhaps I should have, but I did want the words to have a wide audience... any nonChristian was certainly free to start any thread they choose to commenting on the issues. This was intensely difficult and personal... and I do once again request for a completely voluntary compliance with my request. If not.. oh well, that is the way the cookie crumbles and there will not be another peep out of me about that.

Perhaps we can now discuss the issues now that this is out of the way?

 

[Freak]

DD, asks: I am only asking for the courtesy to respect my wishes.

Well, we ask that you respect our wishes too.

 

[cirisme]

We?

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Freak what in the world are you talking about? And you have a lot of nerve butting into a thread of this nature for your own personal agenda against people who ever dare to disagree with you. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. Disgusting.

 

[Freak]

DD, you should be ashamed of yourself for being so prideful to think that you rule this thread and this forum.:nono:

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Tsk, tsk, Freak. You are beyond belief. In my post that you are referring to, I acknowledged that I had no AUTHORITY to make my requests and was asking for common courtesy. You then replied, in a shameless grandstanding action that demonstrates sheer disrespect for the seriousness of this thread and the subject matter and for me, that I somehow do not comply with the same sorts of requests by others. That is untrue. So not only do you come in here and disrespect me, and my pain with this issue, and the utter soberness of my pouring out my heart in public, you then lie about me. If you have a charge against me where I have not honored a similar request by other people, I invite you to do your usual tactic and start a thread about it. If I have ever dishonored a similar reasonable request, I must make ammends.

 

[1013]

folks, let freak be. there is no reason to dialogue with folks when they get like this.

this doesn't have to turn into a debate on respecting the wishes of the topic starter if you don't debate with em on it.

I intend to ask knight for a new rule on a related issue to this.