Common views of God and time.

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
How does He do this without violating free will?

He is creative and can skin a cat in more than one way. He can declare that the Messiah will come, die, rise, and come again because this is under His control and independent of men's free will.

As well, not all prophecy is predictive, but declarative or illustrative.
 

The Graphite

New member
Why don’t you make your point as to how prophecy proves open theism is not false.
We did. It seems you missed it - big surprise there. I'll make it even simpler than ever for you.

If God promises a blessing, and His people turn from Him, and He gives them what He promised, this would be evidence against the God of the Bible, and a violation of His character.

If God promises destruction to a people and they repent (as they did in Ninevah) and He destroys them as promised... this would be evidence against the God of the Bible, and would be a violation of His character.

Fulfilled prophecy is evidence that the God of the Bible is real.

Unfulfilled prophecy is evidence that our God is righteous!​

And it's a very good thing, indeed something to thank God for, that those prophecies did not come about as stated. It is to His greater glory that He didn't do what He said He would do!

So join us in rejoicing in that!
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
He should read the verse again. Peter doesn't admonish us to "pay attention to prophecies." He admonishes his congregations to "heed" them. That is, to obey them! Which means the purpose of the prophecy is to change human behavior.

From Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: 1heed
Pronunciation: \ˈhēd\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hēdan; akin to Old High German huota guard, Old English hōd hood
Date: before 12th century
intransitive verb
: to pay attention
transitive verb
: to give consideration or attention to : mind <heed what he says> <heed the call>
 

The Graphite

New member
The only way all this is possible is for God to be "outside" of time.
Something that exists "outside of time" necessarily experiences absolutely no change, whatsoever. If there were any change, it would demonstrate a before and after, and therefore would have occured in time.

If God experiences absolutely no change, then He is an inanimate object.

I worship the Living God, who is creative, who makes promises, who changes His mind and tells us so. He is living, personal, relational, loving and good. Relationship is fundamental to His character.

But you would have us believe that from His perspective, we are both saved and unsaved, that Christ is unborn, born, alive, dying on the cross, dead, and resurrected all simultaneously from His point of view.

He died once. He is alive.

Christ became flesh. He wasn't always flesh.

He became sin. He wasn't always sin. But, He became sin, and He is sin no longer. Not only does God change, but He changes in some radical ways. At the same time, His character does not change, and He says so.

You would have us believe that God cannot create a new song, or invent a new species. Indeed, how could He ever have created in the first place? If you claim that from God's perspective there has always been a Creation, and He has always been a creator, you are straying into the realm of Process Theology, inferring that God cannot be God without a Creation. Your view infers that there is necessarily a Creation if there is a Creator, which means that the Creator is dependent upon the Creation.

You can't say that God could have not created.... because He has never known a time when there was no Creation or that He was not a Creator -- from His perspective, both Creator and Creation co-exist inherently and necessarily.

The Open View holds that God didn't have to create. He was free to create, and is still free to create, even today. He could think of and create a new thing at any time. He is not dependent upon Creation, but rather He is sovereign over it.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
If God promises a blessing, and His people turn from Him, and He gives them what He promised, this would be evidence against the God of the Bible, and a violation of His character.

Lets look at your statement:

If God promises a blessing

God promised a Messiah

and His people turn from Him

The Jews turned from God

and He gives them what He promised

God sent His only Son

this would be evidence against the God of the Bible, and a violation of His character

??????
 

The Graphite

New member
From Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: 1heed
Pronunciation: \ˈhēd\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hēdan; akin to Old High German huota guard, Old English hōd hood
Date: before 12th century
intransitive verb
: to pay attention
transitive verb
: to give consideration or attention to : mind <heed what he says> <heed the call>
"The man did not heed my warning."

The word "heed" clearly also carries the connotation of doing what was suggested, and this is necessary so, and obvious to anyone but you.

If you warn me, and I pay close attention to every word of your warning, I understand it, and I willfully reject it and act contrary to it... would you say I heeded your warning? Of course not. That would be a ridiculous conclusion. It carries the meaning of responding in accordance to the warning, or in the above cases, the prophecy.

God prophecies He will destroy them if they don't repent. They hear Him, they understand Him, and they reject His will. Thus, they did NOT heed His prophecy.

Peter would not agree that God wants people to only pay attention to His prophecies but doesn't really care if they act in accordance with them.
 

nicholsmom

New member
Knight, I know that you are busy enough with the prophesy question - and it is a fascinating debate - but could you take a few moments on this?

Thanks :e4e:
 

The Graphite

New member
Lets look at your statement:

God promised a Messiah

The Jews turned from God

God sent His only Son

??????
And of course you choose as your example the single most unconditional prophecy in the entire Bible! :doh:

God promises to destroy Ninevah. They repent. He still destroys them.

That is not the God of the Bible.

God promises to drive all of the 'Ites from the Promised Land. Isreal rejects God's will. He still blesses them anyway.

That is not the God of the Bible.

You are willfully refusing to understand the most simple things we are saying to you in this thread, and you know it. Your attitude is childish at best.
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
So all the historical discussion and exegesis by so many great theologians of the past and many in the present is easily waved off?

The "pay off" is a basic view that whatever the essence of God is, it is one that is of a maximum God in all that He is. The atemporality of God is intuitively known outside of special revelation and must be rationalized away for a person to assume God is not in time.

What is the compelling reason to deny it is the better question.

It is possible that people who have never been to Bible college or seminary but approach scripture by coming to him "as a child" and simply believing what the scripture says gain more understanding than the great theologians. It is further possible that those great theologians were not all that great!
 

The Graphite

New member
It is possible that people who have never been to Bible college or seminary but approach scripture by coming to him "as a child" and simply believing what the scripture says gain more understanding than the great theologians. It is further possible that those great theologians were not all that great!
So true!

Those theologians and "early church fathers" are only right insofar as what they said agrees with the Bible.

So they are really moot, as they are only second-rate sources of truth. They can be interesting to read, but far from perfect, and they don't even agree with each other.

Truly, there is no over-arching majority doctrinal view over the last 2,000 years. Besides which, majority opinion certainly does not determine what is true. Truth by committee is a deeply flawed and dangerous way to pursue truth.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hi Knight,
I can tell you what HE told me about why HE gave me my prophetic dreams.

After I realized that I had experience a super-natural occurrence with the 4 dreams that I had, which all came true and in order, I asked God two questions. But, there was only ONE ANSWER for the two questions.

I asked - why HE gave me the dreams and why he didn't tell me what choices to make during those experiences.

He gave ONE answer in a still small voice:
I just wanted you to know that I am real; I am alive; and I know what is going on in your life - even before it happens.

What did you find in the scriptures about this matter?

BTW, I see no conflict in saying that God can allow things to progress naturally by his permissive will ... while at the same time controlling the process according to his set fullness of time - except where we are concerned. I think that God experiences sequential time only through us. Much like HE only experienced pain and suffering through the flesh of created mankind.

The point you made about TIME being one of those things that defines who God is - may not be exactly correct.

Although TIME is in him ... he is not bound by time. Time does not exist outside of him ... but because there is something called time that affects and limits us ... does not mean that it limits God.

Through HIS permissive will some things are allowed to progress naturally and God is aware of how they will progress ... but other things will progress only according to the plans of God ... so that he is in complete control.

With my dreams it was not important what choices I made through them for God already knew how they would turn out if I were left alone ... what mattered was that through them I learned that he was real, alive, and was even aware of my little ole life - which is but a breath in the scheme of things!
I had five prophetic dreams (one more than you) and in all five dreams God told me to tell you that your dreams were a mistake (sorta like a wrong number) and He told me to tell you to please disregard them.
 
Last edited:

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
from the discussion thread
I have to admit my own bias. From my earliest study of the Bible I became convinced that God is actually willing to respond to the prayer of one earnest man.... Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Kin. 20:6; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19; Isa. 38:5

... as opposed to having his mind entirely made up in advance.

It’s called Compatabilism.

Compatabilsim is the belief that man’s free will and God’s foreknowledge exist together.

In other words, I believe we have free will, that God answers our prayers, that God intervenes in our lives, and at the same time God knows exactly what will happen in the future.

Moreover, I do not believe God is the author of sin. Satan committed the first sin, and man followed with Adam committing a sin. Because God is a respecter of free volition, sin exists.

I believe election follows belief. I am pro OSAS.

So, yes Delmar God answers prayers, but God knew a billion years ago what your prayer was, and yet at the same time you are 100% free to pray for whatever you want, whenever you want, about whatever you want. That is what compatibilism is.
I understand what the term compatibilism means, but I can't make it work in my brain. A declaration that exhaustive foreknowledge is compatible with free will does not cause it to be compatible.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Knight, I know that you are busy enough with the prophesy question - and it is a fascinating debate - but could you take a few moments on this?

Thanks :e4e:
Sure. :up:

I agree that God is bound by His own character.

Here is where I get lost:
I've seen many Scriptures that describe the attributes & character of Almighty God, but this is not among them... unless I've missed something...

That God experiences things sequentially does in no way prevent Him also doing otherwise. He most certainly experiences everything quite differently from what we do - it's all a part of His uniqueness.
The Bible is filled with evidence that God experiences time sequentially just like we do. What is lacking from the Bible is any evidence whatsoever that God created time or is not experiencing one event after another event and so on. The burden is on folks like you to demonstrate where in the Bible it portrays God as being in some sort of eternal "now".

This also confuses me:
This is completely without foundation, and actually contradicts every finding of science, interpretation of evidence notwithstanding. Time is an intrinsic part of the space-time continuum - without one, you don't have the other.
You are making the common mistake of confusing the concept of time (i.e., one event follows another event and so on) with the measurement of time (i.e., e=mc2)

If you have some sort of evidence that I've not seen about the origin of everything we know, I'd surely like to see it.
In the beginning wasn't the beginning of everything right?? Clearly you don't think God, love, mercy, judgment and a dozen other things were created "in the beginning" do you?? Likewise, time wasn't created "in the beginning". The creation account is rather clear and nowhere in the creation account does God mention creating time (which of course would be irrational). So... tell me... on what day did God create time? :idunno:

This part is quite fascinating...
though simplistic. Of course we describe things sequentially - we're temporal beings. We certainly can't comprehend anything else. It's all part of the "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts" thing.
God created us in His image. From beginning to end the Bible is filled with evidence that God experiences one event after another event and so on, He created, then He rested, He came in the flesh, and later said "it is finished". If God is stuck in the "eternal now" He could never had the change to be creative, to think, to design, to "bring to pass". If God is stuck in the eternal now He is nothing more than a static being that is less capable than we are.

And this...
... wow, is just an amazing assertion. So since we see in the visual spectrum of light, that's all God can see? Since we hear in the auditory spectrum of sound, that's all God can hear? Why would you assume that since we experience all things sequentially, that God is limited to that perspective?
I never asserted that God can't see more than we can see and hear more than we can hear (please don't put words in my mouth). God can see everything that is happening right now and has seen everything that has ever happened in the past. But that doesn't mean He doesn't see things in a rational order. He is after all, the living God.
 

The Graphite

New member
Ps82, your story about your prophetic dreams is disturbingly familiar to me.

I experienced the same kind of thing .... back when I was a witch. Prophetic visions, each time coming true, and yes, I even foretold the future for other people, and it came true for them, as well.

I also healed others (in person, and from a distance), including a 2nd degree burn, and I witnessed other miraculous events.

I realize now these were demonic in origin. If these events didn't violate the laws of physics, then the only other explanation is that a whole host of individuals (including some Christians) were all victims of a hallucinatory mass hysteria, seeing the same illusion simultaneously. Either way, I see nothing to suggest your "experience" is any different.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I understand what the term compatibilism means, but I can't make it work in my brain. A declaration that exhaustive foreknowledge is compatible with free will does not cause it to be compatible.

Fair enough, but just becuase it doesn't work in your brain doesn't mean it isn't true.

The only way God can have exhaustive foreknowledge and us free will at the same time is for God to be outside of time. Then it works.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The only way God can have exhaustive foreknowledge and us free will at the same time is for God to be outside of time. Then it works.
That's a great point!!!

The only possible way your theology is consistent is to apply a label to it that states that it is consistent. Truth by fiat! I am going to come up with my own word similar to compatibilism. :think: :idea: :sozo: Sneezeltoe!

Sneezeltoe means that Knight is right and anyone he is debating is wrong. It's brilliant I tell you.... brilliant!!!

Sneezeltoe!
 

The Graphite

New member
Fair enough, but just becuase it doesn't work in your brain doesn't mean it isn't true.

The only way God can have exhaustive foreknowledge and us free will at the same time is for God to be outside of time. Then it works.
Unfortunately, this means God is NOT free. He isn't free to do anything other than what He does, and He is stuck in an eternal script He must follow and never deviate from.

He has eternally known He would do _____, therefore that is the only thing He can do.

Pretty sad.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Unfortunately, this means God is NOT free. He isn't free to do anything other than what He does, and He is stuck in an eternal script He must follow and never deviate from.

He has eternally known He would do _____, therefore that is the only thing He can do.

Pretty sad.
And certainly doesn't describe the creative God we read about in the Bible.
 
Top