Prophecy is probably the strongest evidence that the future is NOT settled in advance. But lets not get ahead of ourselves, lets see how he answers my response to his question.
Common views of God and time.
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Biblical eschatology is pretty clear. The rapture, tribulation, millennium, Great White Throne Judgment, etc.
It is the open theist who makes God the puppet master. On one hand the open theist believes God has disclosed eschatology to us, and that we have free will. But then the open theist believes God has to pull billions of strings every day to make sure everything works out the way He said it would. What happens to free will during this string pulling process?
Also, the open theist believes God gets frustrated, mad, hurt, jealous, and angry, etc during the string pulling, yet somehow the open theist still is confident that God will not change His mind about the open theist’s guaranteed eternal life.
The reason we are able to have Biblical eschatology is because God is outside of time. God already knows what happened, right down to how many hairs on the head of the last person to die in the battle of Armageddon.
How can you guys be so sure about your eternal security if you believe God changes His mind, repents, gets angry, and is filled with hate? What if He changes His mind about your salvation and eternal security?
ddevonb
New member
... IS eternally pouring out wrath on the SON????
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle: You didn't answer my question!
Originally posted by SaulToPaul
Do you believe God will cause this to happen?
Daniel 11
16: But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.
17: He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.
But, to answer yours, "Sure".
ddevonb
New member
Genesis 22:12
"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
ddevonb
New member
God is not omnipotent because he delegates some power to us.
God also can't do the irrational... as in make a square circle.
This is not a limitation on his power any more than it is to not know what can't be known yet.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
ddevonb
New member
ddevonb
New member
If you believe that ... why does God not go back in time and fix things?
Because it's not possible.
We all agree that God is eternal.
When God creates something, the creation cannot be eternal, it has a beginning. The creation can be everlasting, but the creation cannot become eternal, or God would not be eternal.
God can be the only thing eternal. God created souls. All souls have a beginning, however all souls have no end. Even unbeliever’s souls do not have an end; the unbeliever’s soul spends “eternity” in everlasting damnation. The Believer’s soul spends “eternity” in Heaven, but the soul is everlasting not eternal. “Eternal life” is an everlasting soul in eternity.
It is impossible for our finite minds to understand what “no beginning” means in relation to eternal. This is why the atheists always ask “where did God come from?”, or “Who made God?”, and there is no way for a Christian to answer it other than to say "God always was". This usually never convinces the atheist.
God has given us prophecy for us, not for Him. Prophecy is not God giving us His blueprint of what His intentions are. It is God telling us what already happened, yet to us, it hasn't happened yet.
ddevonb
New member
You totally misrepresent the open view. We believe that God is free. We believe he doesn't pull strings. While occasionly he may supernaturally intervene it is not his normal mode.
He may bring certain things to pass, he is always free to do a new thing.
The Graphite
New member
For those here who are relatively new to this area of doctrine, I have a little chart. I created it for a friend a few years ago.
LFW = Libertarian Free Will (a term many consider redundant, but it's used to get around Calvinists' equivocating on the term "free will," which they often ascribe to human beings while at the same time claiming that people have no ability to do anything other than what God foreordained. LFW means a person has the genuine ability to do or not to do. Not just freedom of action, but truly free will.
EDF = Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledge. In other words, God knows every detail of everything that will ever happen, and always has known it from eternity past.
MP = Meticulous Providence. In other words, everything that ever happens, happens because God foreordained it and willed for it to happen. A leaf falls, a train is 37 seconds late, and a man rapes a child, each because God willed it to happen and foreordained/predestined it to happen from eternity past.
LFW = Libertarian Free Will (a term many consider redundant, but it's used to get around Calvinists' equivocating on the term "free will," which they often ascribe to human beings while at the same time claiming that people have no ability to do anything other than what God foreordained. LFW means a person has the genuine ability to do or not to do. Not just freedom of action, but truly free will.
EDF = Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledge. In other words, God knows every detail of everything that will ever happen, and always has known it from eternity past.
MP = Meticulous Providence. In other words, everything that ever happens, happens because God foreordained it and willed for it to happen. A leaf falls, a train is 37 seconds late, and a man rapes a child, each because God willed it to happen and foreordained/predestined it to happen from eternity past.
Because God is a respecter of man’s free will
Anything is possible with God, however God can not compromise His perfect attributes. For God to go back in time to fix something would compromise His perfect justice, His perfect righteousness, and many of His other perfect attributes.
Let’s use the battle of Armageddon as the example.
According to open theists, God doesn’t know the future, but somehow prophesized to us this battle will take place anyway. Which of the following is true according to open theism?
1. God has to coerce millions of human beings and events for this battle to take place. This violates human free will.
2. God guessed this battle will take place. It may or it may not.
3. God is free, and sitting back and watching. However God may get mad, and change His mind, and the battle may not happen
4. ???????
Anthropopathism
The Graphite
New member
And Tetelestai, you truly betray your ignorance about the Open View when you say,
What you obviously fail to understand is that the Open View holds that not everythin ghappens the way He said it would. Your assumptions are showing...
What you obviously fail to understand is that the Open View holds that not everythin ghappens the way He said it would. Your assumptions are showing...
I guess I follow Open Theism.
I take this view:
I believe that God set things up and then set them in motion to be manifested in a free developing situation.
Much like a tree that springs from a germinated seed. That tree begins to grow freely.
Yet, God explains that HE can water it, prune it, and even remove or graft in branches ... so he allows freedom of growth while at the same time maintaining the ability to intervene to bring about his desire.
I conclude that time is IN HIM, for how can anything be outside of an omni-present God?...HE is also able to grant freewill and free development within the creation that is within him, while simultaneously directing his will within the creation. For example, bringing forth his prophets from the gene pool of humanity at just the right times appointed -etc.
Yet, I know from 4 super-natural dreams that he gave me that he is also aware of things that are going to come to pass within a person's future life. He informed me of things that were going to come to pass in my future. He did not make these things clear to me when I dreamed them - nor did he tell me what to do in each future situation when it arrived. I just came through those experiences understanding that God is real, he is alive, and somehow he knows what is going on in my life. (past, present, and future.)
I just accept that HE is God and with him all things are possible. I think that the phrase "His permissive will" comes to play in this.
I take this view:
I believe that God set things up and then set them in motion to be manifested in a free developing situation.
Much like a tree that springs from a germinated seed. That tree begins to grow freely.
Yet, God explains that HE can water it, prune it, and even remove or graft in branches ... so he allows freedom of growth while at the same time maintaining the ability to intervene to bring about his desire.
I conclude that time is IN HIM, for how can anything be outside of an omni-present God?...HE is also able to grant freewill and free development within the creation that is within him, while simultaneously directing his will within the creation. For example, bringing forth his prophets from the gene pool of humanity at just the right times appointed -etc.
Yet, I know from 4 super-natural dreams that he gave me that he is also aware of things that are going to come to pass within a person's future life. He informed me of things that were going to come to pass in my future. He did not make these things clear to me when I dreamed them - nor did he tell me what to do in each future situation when it arrived. I just came through those experiences understanding that God is real, he is alive, and somehow he knows what is going on in my life. (past, present, and future.)
I just accept that HE is God and with him all things are possible. I think that the phrase "His permissive will" comes to play in this.
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The Graphite
New member
Some things God has unconditionally foreordained, and will definitely happen. Defeating Satan certainly is unconditionally foreordained, and this is absolutely necessary in respect to His attribute of Justice.
However, a number of details in Revelation may or may not happen, because God's justice and love and grace aren't inherently dependent upon them. So, this is just like the many OT prophecies (and a couple NT) which never came about as stated.
Then how do you know you have eternal security?
How do you know you will go to Heaven when you die?
How do you know that Jesus will even come back?
How does He do this without violating free will?