Common views of God and time.

[godrulz]

Correct.

And for us people who believe God is immutable, we have peace knowing that God will not change His mind about it.

You are making immutability a fixed attribute like eternality or omnipresence (metaphysics). Issues of faithfulness are in the philosophical arena of volitional morals. God is faithful because He chooses to be, not because He is a preprogrammed robot with no ability to keep His Word. God's character is not automatic. We have no reason to not trust God and His Word. If you can trust the word of your parents, how much more can you trust the Heavenly Father based on His self-revelation and track record.

Man and Satan are not trustworthy. God is not a man or devil.

 

[godrulz]

I don't know Knight, if I were an open theist, I might have to keep Him locked up:


What if He changes His mind?

God said that creation is very good, and it was. After the Fall, He changed His mind and wanted to wipe it out and was grieved. If He did not change His mind, His character and mind would be compromised.

God said Hezekiah is a dead duck. This was not a lie, but truth, at the time. However, in response to believing prayer (a new contingency), God did change His mind and added 15 years to his life. He did not have to, but was able to (you are saying He can't).

The statement about God changing his mind occurs dozens of times. It can be taken at face value since it does not compromise His character, but enhances it, when He does so. Being personal, will not is not cannot. If we can change our mind, why can't God (this means we are in His image, not us making God in our image like anti-OVT's lamely claim). In your view, the phrase is meaningless and has no opposite counterpart. There are a couple proof texts that you might use to say He does not change His mind. All they show is that God is not fickle or capricious when He does change it. They do not show that He cannot for ontological/immutability reasons.

You refuse to take the Word at face value because it contradicts traditional assumptions, not for exegetical reasons. Give up tradition rather than tampering with truth.

 

[always_learning]

Whew! A guy goes away for a day, and has to read 6 pages to catch up! Somebody here should go get a job! oh wait, it's saturday...

This is my quick response... I'll try to get more involved later

And true to my nature, i'll respond with a question...

Knight, Graphite, and others who have stated that God does not control free will, and that God has prophesies which have not been fulfilled...

Does this mean I can mess up God's plans? :devil:

You've stated that God may say something, but if man doesn't decide to follow through with what He has said WILL come to pass, it won't come to pass... which indicates that man has power over God.

Must I point this out? That's a load of hooey. (technical term)

Please explain...

 

[godrulz]

Well I was going to make my point with (Eph 1:4)

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

But then I remembered that the open theist has to claim this is a corporate election so that it fits with open theism. so never mind.

We affirm corporate election, along with Arminians, because Calvinists are wrong on this point (TULIP). We can defend corporate election from the concept. We do not believe it because it supports our assumptions (beg question).

 

[godrulz]

Whew! A guy goes away for a day, and has to read 6 pages to catch up! Somebody here should go get a job! oh wait, it's saturday...

This is my quick response... I'll try to get more involved later

And true to my nature, i'll respond with a question...

Knight, Graphite, and others who have stated that God does not control free will, and that God has prophesies which have not been fulfilled...

Does this mean I can mess up God's plans? :devil:

You've stated that God may say something, but if man doesn't decide to follow through with what He has said WILL come to pass, it won't come to pass... which indicates that man has power over God.

Must I point this out? That's a load of hooey. (technical term)

Please explain...

Satan, hell, and evil are e.g. of God not always getting His way. He could be a brute force dictator, but He chooses the risky way of love, freedom, and relationships.

God's power is tempered by His love and holiness. On an individual basis, God's will is not always done (rape, murder, atheism, hell). On a global basis, His intended project will come to pass and good will ultimately triumph over evil (but does not mean it always does so in any given issue now before the end of time).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight, Graphite, and others who have stated that God does not control free will, and that God has prophesies which have not been fulfilled...

Does this mean I can mess up God's plans? :devil:

You specifically? Or man in general?

Yes man in general can mess up God's plans for us. We have been doing it since Adam in the garden.

God wants you to love and choose Him. (1Timothy 2:4)

Yet the majority of men choose to disobey God. (Matthew 7:13)

Therefore, the majority of men "mess up" God's desire that we chose Him.

 

[The Graphite]

Knight, Graphite, and others who have stated that God does not control free will, and that God has prophesies which have not been fulfilled...

Does this mean I can mess up God's plans? :devil:

God told Israel He would drive out the 'Ites, without fail.

The Israelites failed. He did not drive out the 'Ites from the Promised Land.

They messed up the plan at the time. But can we prevent God from ultimate victory? Of course not. He will return, He will be victorious, He will judge the world, those who are saved will have eternal life based on His declared promise, and He will reign forever. Most other details are up for grabs. At least most of Revelation will very likely happen, but it might not all come about as written, and people shouldn't be shocked if a few things end up different.

You've stated that God may say something, but if man doesn't decide to follow through with what He has said WILL come to pass, it won't come to pass... which indicates that man has power over God.

Must I point this out? That's a load of hooey. (technical term)

Please explain...

Man doesn't have power over God. You have it backward.

God is sovereign. At the same time, He delegates authority to people in this world, with the freedom to reject His will and act rebellious. The pharisees resisted the will of God by not being baptized. And yet, it was God's will that they be baptized. So, He is sovereign and is guaranteed ultimate victory. But, He has given us the freedom to thwart His will in the short-term.

 

[tetelestai]

Can I assume that you would affirm that God's righteous character never changes?

(Deut 28:63) "And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought;..."

Yep.

 

[tetelestai]

That's a load of hooey. (technical term)

Yes it is.

It's about time someone else showed up who isn't an open theist.

I was starting to feel like a punching bag.

 

[The Graphite]

Yes it is.

It's about time someone else showed up who isn't an open theist.

I was starting to feel like a punching bag.

Get 'im, boys! :box:


:chuckle: Just teasin'...

And yes, of course it was hooey. We OVers agree. :thumb:

 

[tetelestai]

If we can change our mind, why can't God....

(Isaiah 55:9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

It is not certain what day He will come, and so we pray earnestly, "Lord, come quickly!"

Does God know the exact day and hour?

 

[The Graphite]

Does God know the exact day and hour?

He knows what it is currently, yes.

Until we hasten that day, and then He will know that day and hour.

Lord, come quickly!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

What is the point of prophecy? Why does God say He tells us things in advance that are going to happen?

The point of prophecy is for man's benefit, to know and glorify the one true God, the One who has stated that the clear test of the true God is that what He says, will occur. God is not ruminating in His consciousness and throwing out some conjectures. He is telling the recipients what will happen or what will not happen, because He is sovereign and will make it happen or not happen directly or contingently upon the actions of others. It occurs, and God receives the glory from man.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You refuse to take the Word at face value because it contradicts traditional assumptions, not for exegetical reasons. Give up tradition rather than tampering with truth.

Define "face value" for as you have implied in your post it means nothing more than wooden literalism.

 

[godrulz]

(Isaiah 55:9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This does not mean that they are totally different or that God does not think in sequence like we do. God thinks better than we do, but not differently in every way. We think from a limited perspective. God thinks from a vast perspective and accurately, unlike us much of the time. This proof text does not mean there is no image of God connection between man and God. Saying that God has will and intellect does not mean we are humanizing God or deifying man. The image of God means something. We are like God in some ways, but not in other ways. To think we are not like God in any way is a denial of the I.D.

 

[The Graphite]

The point of prophecy is for man's benefit, to know and glorify the one true God, the One who has stated that the clear test of the true God is that what He says, will occur. God is not ruminating in His consciousness and throwing out some conjectures. He is telling the recipients what will happen or what will not happen, because He is sovereign and will make it happen or not happen directly or contingently upon the actions of others. It occurs, and God receives the glory from man.

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention. I'll try to bring you up to speed.

Many of the things God said would occur.... have never (and will never) occur. Therefore your statement here is incorrect on its face.

Rather, the Lord explained in the situation with Isaiah and the false idols (fire from heaven, etc.) that we can know He is real and sovereign because when He says He will do something, He is able to do it, which puts Him in stark contrast to the idols of wood and stone that the pagans created. Their "gods" could do nothing, while our God can do anything He wants.

It's not that He always does everything He said He would do. The truth He teaches us is that He is able to do whatever He purposes to do. The passage is about His power, not His foreknowledge.

Jeremiah 18:

God says He will do something, and then He doesn't do it.. God says He won't do something, and then He does it. And in both cases, we can rejoice in a God we can trust, because every time this happens, it is a manifestation of His faithfulness and righteousness!

 

[godrulz]

Does God know the exact day and hour?

There is no reason to think that He settled the exact second of the Second Coming in eternity past or even by the first century. He has the ability to set it when He wants, but is not part of a fatalistically fixed future. We believe He is sovereign and can do what He wants when He wants. You seem to believe He has settled everything in advance, negating any significance to man, any responsiveness of God, making God responsible for evil as the ultimate cause, etc.

You are not as smart as you think you are.

 

[godrulz]

Define "face value" for as you have implied in your post it means nothing more than wooden literalism.

The normative hermeneutic is to take the plain sense of Scripture (face value) unless there is a good reason from context to not do so (figurative). I can take passages at face value and literally because I conform my theology to the passage, not vice versa. At times, you reject a simple, normative sense because it contradicts your preconceptions about God. When wooden literalism or face value does not make sense (God having wings/feathers/eyes, etc.), then we have an open door to consider metaphors, anthropomorphism/popathism, etc.

 

[Lighthouse]

I believe in the Eternal Now, that God does not experience "past" or "future," as both terms imply something that is lost or does not yet exist, but rather IS creating the heavens and the earth, IS giving Moses the ten commandments, IS revealing His throne to Isaiah, IS casting Satan into the lake of fire and burning sulfur.

:dizzy:

Maybe i over simplify , but how can God be bound by anything ?

He is not longer omnipotent if he is ?

No. God is not omnipotent if He cannot bind Himself.

Biblical eschatology is pretty clear. The rapture, tribulation, millennium, Great White Throne Judgment, etc.

It is the open theist who makes God the puppet master. On one hand the open theist believes God has disclosed eschatology to us, and that we have free will. But then the open theist believes God has to pull billions of strings every day to make sure everything works out the way He said it would. What happens to free will during this string pulling process?

Also, the open theist believes God gets frustrated, mad, hurt, jealous, and angry, etc during the string pulling, yet somehow the open theist still is confident that God will not change His mind about the open theist’s guaranteed eternal life.

The reason we are able to have Biblical eschatology is because God is outside of time. God already knows what happened, right down to how many hairs on the head of the last person to die in the battle of Armageddon.

How can you guys be so sure about your eternal security if you believe God changes His mind, repents, gets angry, and is filled with hate? What if He changes His mind about your salvation and eternal security?

God has no need to pull any strings for the prophecies of eschatology to come true.:nono:

Then how do you know you have eternal security?

How do you know you will go to Heaven when you die?

Because the conditions for our promise of salvation have already been fulfilled.

How do you know that Jesus will even come back?

Because He has promised. And He keeps His word. There is no condition on the return of Christ. Only on when.

As an OV and MAD, I believe that Jesus was supposed to return seven years after He ascended. But, because of Israel's reject He did not. The He set about with another plan.

Because open theism is a paradox

Translation: I don't understand it so it must be illogical.

God has given us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee (2Corinthians 1:22, 2Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14). I trust God and His guarantee. If the only way we can trust God is to freeze Him solid so that He cannot move, what kind of a relationship is that?

:thumb:

Well I was going to make my point with (Eph 1:4)

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

But then I remembered that the open theist has to claim this is a corporate election so that it fits with open theism. so never mind.

The other issue I have with this verse, and it's use by the settled camp is that the word for "before" also means other things. How do we know that it was intended to mean "before?"

I would so enjoy going all Sozo on you right now, but Knight said to set a new tone.

tetelestai
Can I assume that you would affirm that God's righteous character never changes?

What they said:

The new tone is a general guideline not a set in stone rule. TOL is not immutable.

That's not until Jan 1st, so go ahead while you still can.