Common views of God and time.

[The Graphite]

It is possible that people who have never been to Bible college or seminary but approach scripture by coming to him "as a child" and simply believing what the scripture says gain more understanding than the great theologians. It is further possible that those great theologians were not all that great!

So true!

Those theologians and "early church fathers" are only right insofar as what they said agrees with the Bible.

So they are really moot, as they are only second-rate sources of truth. They can be interesting to read, but far from perfect, and they don't even agree with each other.

Truly, there is no over-arching majority doctrinal view over the last 2,000 years. Besides which, majority opinion certainly does not determine what is true. Truth by committee is a deeply flawed and dangerous way to pursue truth.

[Knight]

Hi Knight,
I can tell you what HE told me about why HE gave me my prophetic dreams.

After I realized that I had experience a super-natural occurrence with the 4 dreams that I had, which all came true and in order, I asked God two questions. But, there was only ONE ANSWER for the two questions.

I asked - why HE gave me the dreams and why he didn't tell me what choices to make during those experiences.

He gave ONE answer in a still small voice:
I just wanted you to know that I am real; I am alive; and I know what is going on in your life - even before it happens.

What did you find in the scriptures about this matter?

BTW, I see no conflict in saying that God can allow things to progress naturally by his permissive will ... while at the same time controlling the process according to his set fullness of time - except where we are concerned. I think that God experiences sequential time only through us. Much like HE only experienced pain and suffering through the flesh of created mankind.

The point you made about TIME being one of those things that defines who God is - may not be exactly correct.

Although TIME is in him ... he is not bound by time. Time does not exist outside of him ... but because there is something called time that affects and limits us ... does not mean that it limits God.

Through HIS permissive will some things are allowed to progress naturally and God is aware of how they will progress ... but other things will progress only according to the plans of God ... so that he is in complete control.

With my dreams it was not important what choices I made through them for God already knew how they would turn out if I were left alone ... what mattered was that through them I learned that he was real, alive, and was even aware of my little ole life - which is but a breath in the scheme of things!

I had five prophetic dreams (one more than you) and in all five dreams God told me to tell you that your dreams were a mistake (sorta like a wrong number) and He told me to tell you to please disregard them.

[Delmar]

from the discussion thread

I have to admit my own bias. From my earliest study of the Bible I became convinced that God is actually willing to respond to the prayer of one earnest man.... Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Kin. 20:6; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19; Isa. 38:5

... as opposed to having his mind entirely made up in advance.

It’s called Compatabilism.

Compatabilsim is the belief that man’s free will and God’s foreknowledge exist together.

In other words, I believe we have free will, that God answers our prayers, that God intervenes in our lives, and at the same time God knows exactly what will happen in the future.

Moreover, I do not believe God is the author of sin. Satan committed the first sin, and man followed with Adam committing a sin. Because God is a respecter of free volition, sin exists.

I believe election follows belief. I am pro OSAS.

So, yes Delmar God answers prayers, but God knew a billion years ago what your prayer was, and yet at the same time you are 100% free to pray for whatever you want, whenever you want, about whatever you want. That is what compatibilism is.

I understand what the term compatibilism means, but I can't make it work in my brain. A declaration that exhaustive foreknowledge is compatible with free will does not cause it to be compatible.

[Knight]

Knight, I know that you are busy enough with the prophesy question - and it is a fascinating debate - but could you take a few moments on this?

Thanks

Sure.

I agree that God is bound by His own character.

Here is where I get lost:
I've seen many Scriptures that describe the attributes & character of Almighty God, but this is not among them... unless I've missed something...

That God experiences things sequentially does in no way prevent Him also doing otherwise. He most certainly experiences everything quite differently from what we do - it's all a part of His uniqueness.

The Bible is filled with evidence that God experiences time sequentially just like we do. What is lacking from the Bible is any evidence whatsoever that God created time or is not experiencing one event after another event and so on. The burden is on folks like you to demonstrate where in the Bible it portrays God as being in some sort of eternal "now".

This also confuses me:
This is completely without foundation, and actually contradicts every finding of science, interpretation of evidence notwithstanding. Time is an intrinsic part of the space-time continuum - without one, you don't have the other.

You are making the common mistake of confusing the concept of time (i.e., one event follows another event and so on) with the measurement of time (i.e., e=mc²)

If you have some sort of evidence that I've not seen about the origin of everything we know, I'd surely like to see it.

In the beginning wasn't the beginning of everything right?? Clearly you don't think God, love, mercy, judgment and a dozen other things were created "in the beginning" do you?? Likewise, time wasn't created "in the beginning". The creation account is rather clear and nowhere in the creation account does God mention creating time (which of course would be irrational). So... tell me... on what day did God create time?

This part is quite fascinating...
though simplistic. Of course we describe things sequentially - we're temporal beings. We certainly can't comprehend anything else. It's all part of the "My thoughts are higher than your thoughts" thing.

God created us in His image. From beginning to end the Bible is filled with evidence that God experiences one event after another event and so on, He created, then He rested, He came in the flesh, and later said "it is finished". If God is stuck in the "eternal now" He could never had the change to be creative, to think, to design, to "bring to pass". If God is stuck in the eternal now He is nothing more than a static being that is less capable than we are.

And this...
... wow, is just an amazing assertion. So since we see in the visual spectrum of light, that's all God can see? Since we hear in the auditory spectrum of sound, that's all God can hear? Why would you assume that since we experience all things sequentially, that God is limited to that perspective?

I never asserted that God can't see more than we can see and hear more than we can hear (please don't put words in my mouth). God can see everything that is happening right now and has seen everything that has ever happened in the past. But that doesn't mean He doesn't see things in a rational order. He is after all, the living God.

[The Graphite]

Ps82, your story about your prophetic dreams is disturbingly familiar to me.

I experienced the same kind of thing .... back when I was a witch. Prophetic visions, each time coming true, and yes, I even foretold the future for other people, and it came true for them, as well.

I also healed others (in person, and from a distance), including a 2nd degree burn, and I witnessed other miraculous events.

I realize now these were demonic in origin. If these events didn't violate the laws of physics, then the only other explanation is that a whole host of individuals (including some Christians) were all victims of a hallucinatory mass hysteria, seeing the same illusion simultaneously. Either way, I see nothing to suggest your "experience" is any different.

[tetelestai]

I understand what the term compatibilism means, but I can't make it work in my brain. A declaration that exhaustive foreknowledge is compatible with free will does not cause it to be compatible.

Fair enough, but just becuase it doesn't work in your brain doesn't mean it isn't true.

The only way God can have exhaustive foreknowledge and us free will at the same time is for God to be outside of time. Then it works.

[Knight]

The only way God can have exhaustive foreknowledge and us free will at the same time is for God to be outside of time. Then it works.

That's a great point!!!

The only possible way your theology is consistent is to apply a label to it that states that it is consistent. Truth by fiat! I am going to come up with my own word similar to compatibilism. Sneezeltoe!

Sneezeltoe means that Knight is right and anyone he is debating is wrong. It's brilliant I tell you.... brilliant!!!

Sneezeltoe!

[The Graphite]

Fair enough, but just becuase it doesn't work in your brain doesn't mean it isn't true.

The only way God can have exhaustive foreknowledge and us free will at the same time is for God to be outside of time. Then it works.

Unfortunately, this means God is NOT free. He isn't free to do anything other than what He does, and He is stuck in an eternal script He must follow and never deviate from.

He has eternally known He would do _____, therefore that is the only thing He can do.

Pretty sad.

[Knight]

Unfortunately, this means God is NOT free. He isn't free to do anything other than what He does, and He is stuck in an eternal script He must follow and never deviate from.

He has eternally known He would do _____, therefore that is the only thing He can do.

Pretty sad.

And certainly doesn't describe the creative God we read about in the Bible.

[Stripe]

Then how do you know you have eternal security?

How do you know you will go to Heaven when you die?

How do you know that Jesus will even come back?

Faith.

[tetelestai]

That's a great point!!!

The only possible way your theology is consistent is to apply a label to it that states that it is consistent. Truth by fiat! I am going to come up with my own word similar to compatibilism. Sneezeltoe!

Sneezeltoe means that Knight is right and anyone he is debating is wrong. It's brilliant I tell you.... brilliant!!!

Sneezeltoe!

Do you believe God “creates” souls?

I assume your answer is “yes”. Unless you are a traducianist the soul is imparted to us at birth from God. So, when were these souls created? I was born in 1964, my dad in 1937, my grandfather in 1905, etc.

Does God create these souls on an “as need basis” (thousands each day)? Were they all created in eternity past? Did my soul exist anywhere or anyhow before March 22, 1964?

[Knight]

Faith.

Exactly!

I trust God because He is righteous, just, and loving, and not because He can't move. Basically what tetelestai is saying is the only possible way he could trust God is if God was incapable of any type of new action at all. It isn't a loving relationship when the husband only trusts the wife by keeping her locked up in the closet.

tetelestai, you can let God out! You can trust Him! He will keep His word because His is righteous and just.

[tetelestai]

Faith.

Correct.

And for us people who believe God is immutable, we have peace knowing that God will not change His mind about it.

[Stripe]

The gospel message we present to people is that if they repent and confess Christ then God will honour their faith. Asserting that God already knows the end of our evangelism utterly defeats the effort.

[Delmar]

Anthropopathism

I really hate when you do that! An Anthropopathism is a particular type of figure of speech. When you say that the scripture being quoted is a figure of speech (which it may well be) it does nothing to move the conversation forward unless you tell us what point you believe God is communicating with this particular figure of speech.