ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[godrulz]

Time is not space. Relativity THEORIES are not perfect and do not relate to existence before creation. Time is not a created thing. Endless time/duration/sequence/succession is defensible, but timelessness is philosophical and indefensible for personal beings, including God.

Time being an aspect of God's existence is not a limitation on God like it is for us.

C.S. Lewis also believed eternal now (if you want to quote people), but he was wrong on this point.

 

[themuzicman]

This does not answer my comment that "I Am" means that Christ is referring to his "timelessness". That he has a "timeless nature" does not deal with the fact that Jesus is saying he is God and that he is saying it in "time", not outside of it. If you will see it, you would have to see that there was a time in Christ, "before and after" he was made a little lower than the angels, that is an aspect of time.

--Dave

Wow... Another case of exegetical malpractice...

Did you bother to read the context of this verse? Do you know Israel's history? How about the story of Moses and the burning bush?

Jesus isn't making a temporal claim by saying "I am." He's claiming to be Yahweh... The same voice that spoke to Moses in the desert from the burning bush... God tells Moses to reply to Israel with an inquiry as to who sent him (Moses) as, "This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exo 3:14)

All this talk about "I am" being a statement about timelessness is nothing more than shredding Scripture for theological gain.

Muz

 

[elected4ever]

Time is not space. Relativity THEORIES are not perfect and do not relate to existence before creation. Time is not a created thing. Endless time/duration/sequence/succession is defensible, but timelessness is philosophical and indefensible for personal beings, including God.

Time being an aspect of God's existence is not a limitation on God like it is for us.

C.S. Lewis also believed eternal now (if you want to quote people), but he was wrong on this point.

It is quite possible that when we, being finite, speak of time we can only speak of our perception of it and we cannot define time to any degree apart from that. When it comes to the infinite We can only speculate.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Corporate vs individual (Calvinism) election is the key. Those who believe in real/space time through faith become part of the foreknown generic people of God. Individual salvation is not fixed nor foreknown in eternity past!

What you say is ridiculous. The Lord chooses "individuals" to salvation and not "groups" of people. And that is exactly what is spoken of here:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

Your idea that this is in regard to corporate election is laughable! How can the Lord choose groups of people to salvation with choosing "individuals"?

Here the same thing is said:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

You know that if these verses are speaking of "individual" election thern your whole approach to "Open Theology" must be abandoned. So instead of acknowledging the truth you throw your reason to the wind and insist that these verses refer to "corporate" election!!!

 

[themuzicman]

What you say is ridiculous. The Lord chooses "individuals" to salvation and not "groups" of people. And that is exactly what is spoken of here:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

Your idea that this is in regard to corporate election is laughable! How can the Lord choose groups of people to salvation with choosing "individuals"?

Um... the "YOU" here is plural. Paul is referring to the entire church, not the individuals contained within it. Only by assuming individual election could you reach this conclusion, because what you claim isn't found in the text, here.

What God chose was to reveal the gospel to those in Thessalonica, to create a church there. There is no need for individuals to be specifically chosen for some to believe and form that church.

Here the same thing is said:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

You know that if these verses are speaking of "individual" election thern your whole approach to "Open Theology" must be abandoned. So instead of acknowledging the truth you throw your reason to the wind and insist that these verses refer to "corporate" election!!!

This is just silly. Peter is referring to all of his readers, not just one. You have the same issue, here. You assume individual election, therefore you conclude individual election.

The text does not point to your conclusion without your assumption!

Muz

 

[elected4ever]

What you say is ridiculous. The Lord chooses "individuals" to salvation and not "groups" of people. And that is exactly what is spoken of here:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

Your idea that this is in regard to corporate election is laughable! How can the Lord choose groups of people to salvation with choosing "individuals"?

Here the same thing is said:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

You know that if these verses are speaking of "individual" election thern your whole approach to "Open Theology" must be abandoned. So instead of acknowledging the truth you throw your reason to the wind and insist that these verses refer to "corporate" election!!!

Jerry, God did not choose you and me at the expense of another who He destined to hell by the same choice

There is a sense that you and I choose and at the same time God choose. Whether one wonts to believe it or not, Saul (Paul) loved God and had chosen God before His Damascus Road conversion to Christianity where God's choice of Paul (Saul) was made known.

 

[themuzicman]

Here's a question for you closed theists:

What would God be unable to accomplish with respect to His purpose for creation, if He did not have exhaustive and definite foreknowledge?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Um... the "YOU" here is plural. Paul is referring to the entire church, not the individuals contained within it.

How could He choose an "entire church" to salvation unless He chose "individuals" to salvation. Do you not know that the "entire church" is made up of individuals.

The following words in regard to how a sinner is saved is directed at an "individual":

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

The forgiveness of her sins was not done corporately but instead individually! Her salvation by faith was not in regard to a corporate salvation but instead was in regard to "individual" salvation.

This is just silly.

What is silly is the idea that the following verse is somehow in regard to "corporate" salvation:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

One must turn reason on its head to say that this verse referes to "corporate" salvation and has nothing to do with "individual" salvation. How can a whole group be saved unless every "individual" within that group is saved?

 

[DFT_Dave]

If He only wanted to say that He could have said, Before Abraham I was." But that it not what he said and you have been unable to explain what Arthur C. Custance wrote:

"The Lord took Abraham's time as the pivot and spoke of two periods balanced on either side, namely, the ages which preceded Abraham, and all that followed (including the present). He then deliberately picked up the present and put it back before Abraham, but still referred to that distant period in the present tense."

Nothing that you have said even comes close to explaining wht the Lord would say, "Before Abraham I am."

Do you think that His real nature is that of being a little lower than angels?:

"Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands" (Heb.2:7).

I quoted that verse earlier and you had no comment. Do you think that the Lord Jesus as He is now is in a state that is "a little lower than angels"?

When on earth He had an "earthly" body and now that He is heaven He has a "heavenly" body:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

in His grace,
Jerry

What does timelessness mean? Would you give me your definition?

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Wow... Another case of exegetical malpractice...

Did you bother to read the context of this verse? Do you know Israel's history? How about the story of Moses and the burning bush?

Jesus isn't making a temporal claim by saying "I am." He's claiming to be Yahweh... The same voice that spoke to Moses in the desert from the burning bush... God tells Moses to reply to Israel with an inquiry as to who sent him (Moses) as, "This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exo 3:14)

All this talk about "I am" being a statement about timelessness is nothing more than shredding Scripture for theological gain.

Muz

I think you missed the point of my argument. I agree with you that Jesus is saying he is God, Jerry thinks it is a statement that Jesus is saying he is "timeless", and I disagree.

--Dave

 

[themuzicman]

How could He choose an "entire church" to salvation unless He chose "individuals" to salvation. Do you not know that the "entire church" is made up of individuals.

Ah, but it does NOT need to be a specific LIST of individuals. God can simply choose to have the gospel preached in a town, choosing to have a church, and those who believe are its members. Who specifically believes, then, isn't important.

The following words in regard to how a sinner is saved is directed at an "individual":

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).[/quote

Umm.. this was in response to her expression of faith. This isn't arbitrary. Individual election is.

The forgiveness of her sins was not done corporately but instead individually! Her salvation by faith was not in regard to a corporate salvation but instead was in regard to "individual" salvation.

Yes, sins are forgiven individually. However, this does not mean that she was the target of individual election. It simply means that she believed and was forgiven. Jesus responded to her faith. This incident didn't have to be her specifically. It could just as easily been someone else.

What is silly is the idea that the following verse is somehow in regard to "corporate" salvation:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

One must turn reason on its head to say that this verse referes to "corporate" salvation and has nothing to do with "individual" salvation. How can a whole group be saved unless every "individual" within that group is saved?

But "election" isn't about whether individuals get saved, but rather whether God pre-selected which individuals will be saved, and by intent or exclusion, which will not.

This verse says nothing of the sort.

Muz

 

[themuzicman]

I think you missed the point of my argument. I agree with you that Jesus is saying he is God, Jerry thinks it is a statement that Jesus is saying he is "timeless", and I disagree.

--Dave

Oh, my bad. I must have misread you. Sorry!

Muz

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ah, but it does NOT need to be a specific LIST of individuals. God can simply choose to have the gospel preached in a town, choosing to have a church, and those who believe are its members. Who specifically believes, then, isn't important.

By your own words it is "individuals" who believe so therefore it is "individuals" who are saved and it is therefore "individuals" who are chosen by God for salvation.

 

[themuzicman]

By your own words it is "individuals" who believe so therefore it is "individuals" who are saved and it is therefore "individuals" who are chosen by God for salvation.

Again, incorrect. Let me provide an analogy:

I announce that I will be giving lollipops to everyone who is in room 101 at 6pm.

Now, I have chosen (elected) a group to receive lollipops, but I have no idea who will actually be there.

At 6pm, I give lollipops to individuals, but I did not choose the individuals who received them, because I promised them to all who came to room 101 at 6pm.

In the same way, God promises salvation to all who believe, and in a given town, where the gospel is preached, some individuals choose to believe. However, God did not choose these individuals specifically, but rather chose to give salvation freely to all who believe.

This is corporate election.


Individual election means that a preacher goes into a town to preach, but only those whom God has pre-selected beforehand to receive salvation are even able to believe and, in fact, are unable to resist doing so. Those not pre-selected are able to believe and thus cannot be saved.

In my analogy, I would announce that I was giving lollipops to certain individuals at 6pm in room 101, and I would force all those individuals to be there at 6pm to receive it, and no one else is able to have one.

The former is quite biblical, as God desires all men to be saved, and Christ's propitiation was made for all men.

The latter, obviously, is not.

Muz

 

[ThePresbyteers]

This message is deleted and closed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What does timelessness mean? Would you give me your definition?

First we must attempt to get an idea about the "eternal" state, an existence that existed before the creation of the universe. Here Paul speaks about things which are eternal:

"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:17-18).

From this we can understand that the things which make up the universe are temporal and can be seen as opposed to eternal things, things which cannot be seen.

This does not mean that the eternal things have no form or shape, only that we, while in our temporal bodies, are not equipped to see eternal things. That is why we find the following description of things "eternal":

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1 Tim.1:17).

That is the difference between the earthly body and the eternal, spiritual body which the Christian will put on when we meet the Lord Jesus in the air:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).

Here Paul makes a distinction between a "natural" body and a "spiritual" body:

"It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:43-44).

The two different types of bodies are not the same. One is designed for life on earth while the other is designed for life in heaven (see 1 Corinthians 15:49-50).

Paul describes the glorious body which the Christian will put on as "our house which is from heaven":

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

That is also the same "hope" that is spoken of in the following verse:

"We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel" (Col.1:3-5).

Can you see that the eternal state is very different than the existence that we as humans experience in our lifes? Again, Sir Robert Anderson writes:

"One of the most popular systems of metaphysics is based upon the fact that certain of our ideas seem to spring from the essential constitution of the mind itself ; and these are not subject to our reason, but, on the contrary, they control it. A superficial thinker might suppose the powers of human imagination to be boundless. He can imagine the sun and moon and stars to disappear from the heavens, and the peopled earth to vanish from beneath his feet, leaving him a solitary unit in boundless space ; but let him try, pursuing still further his madman's dream, to grasp the thought of space itself being annihilated, and his mind, in obedience to some inexorable law, will refuse the conception altogether."

It is difficult and almost impossible for the human mind to grasp the existence within the eternal state, a state that existed before the creation of the universe. Before I go on will you agree with this? Is there anything that I said to which you do not agree?

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[godrulz]

What you say is ridiculous. The Lord chooses "individuals" to salvation and not "groups" of people. And that is exactly what is spoken of here:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

Your idea that this is in regard to corporate election is laughable! How can the Lord choose groups of people to salvation with choosing "individuals"?

Here the same thing is said:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

You know that if these verses are speaking of "individual" election thern your whole approach to "Open Theology" must be abandoned. So instead of acknowledging the truth you throw your reason to the wind and insist that these verses refer to "corporate" election!!!

Arminians also rightly believe in corporate vs individual election (but believe individuals are foreknown vs predestined).

God purposes to have a people for Himself, Israel and the Church. He does not predestine which individuals will be part of the group in advance. I assume you would take the foreknowledge argument (which is actually consistent with corporate election vs Calvinism/individual election) which puts individual knowledge with FK while supposedly retaining free will (vs Calvinism TULIP).

I gave links for detailed exegetical arguments for corporate/against individual election (that do not demand Open Theism assumptions, just exegesis as Arminians also do). Keep in mind that many translations have a Calvinistic bias (translators) and that a Greek word study or original exegetical study of your proof texts would be helpful/necessary.

ttp://www.gregboyd.org/qa/open-theism/responses-to-objections/how-do-you-respond-to-1-peter-11–2/

(Eph. 1 is about the corporate church and relationship with Christ; reading Calvinistic individual election does not stand up to scrutiny in Greek vs biased English versions).

 

[godrulz]

By your own words it is "individuals" who believe so therefore it is "individuals" who are saved and it is therefore "individuals" who are chosen by God for salvation.

God purposes in advance to add individuals to the group if and when they believe, not by decree in eternity past (Calv./determinism) nor simple foreknowledge (Arm./free will).

An airline schedules a plane to fly from NY to LA one year ahead of time. The plane will make this flight as foreknown/predestined. The exact individuals who will eventually buy tickets, not get sick, not cancel their flight, not die before it, not chicken out, etc. is not foreknown or predestined. Once they actually make the flight, then they are part of the foreknown/predestined group as individuals (but they were not fatalistically fixed one year ago like the plane was).

Individual election is a denial of free will, love, relationship (Calvinism) or based on the wrong assumption of 'eternal now'/simple foreknowledge (not defensible). Corporate election is biblical, but North Americans (unlike Hebrews) think individualistically.

 

[godrulz]

Maybe I didn't read your post right but it seems that space can't exist without time. How else could you get from point A to point B and it would take time to get to the 2 points.

Perhaps point A is point B at the same time and same place and we all don't get it.

Time is more fundamental than space. It is not a thing, but a concept of duration, succession, sequence. Time existed in the eternal relations of the triune God even before material creation.

Time does locate events in space, but duration exists even if there are no events, no universe, etc.

Ps. 90:2 There is a before and after creation, even for God (creation is not co-eternal with God). Ps. 102:27 God has endless years, not timelessness. Rev. 1:4, 8 Tensed expressions are used of God and is endless duration of existence.

 

[godrulz]

By your own words it is "individuals" who believe so therefore it is "individuals" who are saved and it is therefore "individuals" who are chosen by God for salvation.

God purposes in advance to add individuals to the group if and when they believe, not by decree in eternity past (Calv./determinism) nor simple foreknowledge (Arm./free will).

An airline schedules a plane to fly from NY to LA one year ahead of time. The plane will make this flight as foreknown/predestined. The exact individuals who will eventually buy tickets, not get sick, not cancel their flight, not die before it, not chicken out, etc. is not foreknown or predestined. Once they actually make the flight, then they are part of the foreknown/predestined group as individuals (but they were not fatalistically fixed one year ago like the plane was).

Individual election is a denial of free will, love, relationship (Calvinism) or based on the wrong assumption of 'eternal now'/simple foreknowledge (not defensible). Corporate election is biblical, but North Americans (unlike Hebrews) think individualistically.