Delmar's POD 11-3-14

Angel4Truth

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Can you do anything else, or will you do exactly what He knows you will do?


That is not the way God's foreknowledge works in Arminianism.

Im not arminian nor calvinist was only making a point that choice is still choice if you know what someone will choose
 

rocketman

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God controls and overrules the sins of His creation.

Oh how convenient...so, on one hand you say:

Originally Posted by Nang
God controls everything He created . . .

But on the other hand you say:

God controls and overrules the sins of His creation

Define your quote above for us, you can't have both ways either God determine/controls humanity's every action as you said to Right Divider or He does not control every action and humanity has the free will choice to choose good or evil. Every action would include evil/sin. Please explain...
 

voltaire

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:thumb:


GOD has created a real world of cause and effect which man is free to act upon, because GOD has sovereignly ordained that man should have the good and mysterious gifts of self-consciousness and self-determination/free will.
To say that GOD is pulling every string, that all things are determined and that man is determined, is to ignore the real world that GOD has made and thus, live in a fantasy world.
Also, to say that GOD is pulling every string is the same as saying that there are no miracles because a true miracle is an interference with the cause and effect real world that GOD has made. If everything is a miracle, then.......nothing is.
Excellent. This also defines miracles. Its a favorite atheist talking point.
 

rocketman

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God determined man would sin, and God provided remedy (by giving His Son as sacrifice) for human sin.

Then you contend that God is the father of sin since He determines it? The father of evil since He controls the every action of His creation?

Where do you find Divine evil in this message of grace?

I haven't, you have...

I do not call God, "evil."

Actually you have whether you understand what your espousing or not. If you say that God determines/controls whether His creation sins (or not) than that is exactly what you have said, your statement has made God the author of sin. :nono:

You are the one coming to this conclusion, not me . . .

That is true but, I am not the one that has made the statement which when rendered down comes to that conclusion all on it's own. If you don't see a problem with your position, your blind.
 

Lighthouse

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Note I said 'should know,' not 'does know.' I was taking his premise just for the sake of response to show his bad logic.
There was nothing wrong with his logic.

Time you hung up the spurs, pops.
I don't know who he's calling "young" as he's younger than me.

Im not arminian nor calvinist was only making a point that choice is still choice if you know what someone will choose
In your example there was inference based on past knowledge. In the discussion of free will and God's foreknowledge that is not part of the debate. According to the argument of those who are not of the open view God's foreknowledge is exhaustive, definite and stretches back to eternity past. In other words, according to them God knew what I would wear today before He created anything. Do you agree with that view?
 

Angel4Truth

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In your example there was inference based on past knowledge. In the discussion of free will and God's foreknowledge that is not part of the debate. According to the argument of those who are not of the open view God's foreknowledge is exhaustive, definite and stretches back to eternity past. In other words, according to them God knew what I would wear today before He created anything. Do you agree with that view?

yes, but i rather think that God isnt interested in focusing on that.
 

Lighthouse

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yes, but i rather think that God isnt interested in focusing on that.
Well, at least we agree on half. I am fully convinced, by Scripture, that God did not know, because the information did not exist. In fact, the available information from which He could select a choice for the possibility did not exist then.

Can you tell me why you believe it did?
 

Angel4Truth

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Well, at least we agree on half. I am fully convinced, by Scripture, that God did not know, because the information did not exist. In fact, the available information from which He could select a choice for the possibility did not exist then.

Can you tell me why you believe it did?

We have debated this before, nothing about it has changed for me. I do not limit God.
 

Lighthouse

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We have debated this before, nothing about it has changed for me. I do not limit God.
Neither do I. I did not ask you why you think God is not limited. I asked why you think time is not limited. Why do you think tomorrow existed to be known before God even decided to create?
 

Angel4Truth

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Neither do I. I did not ask you why you think God is not limited. I asked why you think time is not limited. Why do you think tomorrow existed to be known before God even decided to create?

I think God is capable of working all things together - there are countless verses that testify to His having foreknowledge of all things. See our last debate on it for some of the relevant verses, i have no desire to debate it again.
 

Lighthouse

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I think God is capable of working all things together - there are countless verses that testify to His having foreknowledge of all things. See our last debate on it for some of the relevant verses, i have no desire to debate it again.

  1. No such verses exist.
  2. I didn't ask about God's foreknowledge, so that is irrelevant.
  3. Stop avoiding the issue and answer the question I actually asked.
 

musterion

Well-known member
There was nothing wrong with his logic

I disagree. He wrote,

How is it a choice if I have to do what he already knows I'll do?
Given the prior conversation, "have to do" seemed to imply "forced to do." If I misread him on that point then the problem is mine but I don't think I did.

If God happens to foreknow everything people will choose to do, that foreknowledge does not reduce their choices to non-choices. It does not equate with Him "forcing" them to do what is foreknown. Sure, if it's foreknown, they will "have" to do it (yes, I understand the can of worms that opens) but that still wouldn't equate with Him "making" them do anything. Those are two independent propositions.
 

JosephR

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Neither do I. I did not ask you why you think God is not limited. I asked why you think time is not limited. Why do you think tomorrow existed to be known before God even decided to create?

sure time is limited, all things that have a beginning are.


Gen 1:1

here you see time start. "In the beginning" stop there...
this is an open plane in geometry and any geometry student will tell you a plane is infinite in theory. But we know the word infinite makes no sense.

So , In the beginning ,time starts, God created, on His plane, the Heavens and the Earth ie the Universe.

Time did not start till creation, and God did not create Himself in creation.

Your a smart guy but your afraid to disagree with your teachers. and that will limit you friend.
 

Lighthouse

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I disagree. He wrote,

Given the prior conversation, "have to do" seemed to imply "forced to do." If I misread him on that point then the problem is mine but I don't think I did.

If God happens to foreknow everything people will choose to do, that foreknowledge does not reduce their choices to non-choices. It does not equate with Him "forcing" them to do what is foreknown. Sure, if it's foreknown, they will "have" to do it (yes, I understand the can of worms that opens) but that still wouldn't equate with Him "making" them do anything. Those are two independent propositions.
Can one do anything other than what God knows they will do? Are the able to? Do they have the freedom to do so?

sure time is limited, all things that have a beginning are.

Gen 1:1

here you see time start. "In the beginning" stop there...
this is an open plane in geometry and any geometry student will tell you a plane is infinite in theory. But we know the word infinite makes no sense.

So , In the beginning ,time starts, God created, on His plane, the Heavens and the Earth ie the Universe.

Time did not start till creation, and God did not create Himself in creation.

Your a smart guy but your afraid to disagree with your teachers. and that will limit you friend.
You don't know me, so don't pretend to. I came to this site fully believing in the Arminian view of time and God's relation to it; including His foreknowledge. I believed time was created in the events recorded in Genesis1, regardless of the fact that no such statement is ever made; throughout the entire Bible.

time is limited in that the present moment is all there is at any given moment. The past is gone, never to be seen again. And the future is yet to be. Neither exists outside of memories and concepts. And God cannot be within that which is non-extant. He cannot see that which does not exist and therefore cannot be seen.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Can one do anything other than what God knows they will do?

IF He exhaustively knows all that we all will or won't do...if He knows whether I'll order a BLT or a Reuben nine years from now...then I'd guess the answer would be no, we don't. But I was not looking to enter into this debate. There's too much that seems philosophical white area speculation and assumption making, on both sides, so I shy away from it. There's good points made by both too, but too much 'secret things are God's' about all this to me. I only wanted to show what I see as a hole in an atheist's reasoning about God, and nothing else.
 
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