Originally posted by Sheepdog
Originally posted by chance
I put less value in the OSAS doctrine than I used to. For one thing, it seems to go against the experience of many who know people who claimed to be and showed themselves t be solid Christians and then turn their backs on it all later in life. You would think if they were always saved that they would be making progress in their sanctification becoming more and more conformed to the image of Christ.
I really like the idea of always
becoming a Christian as
Sanders quotes
Rob Roberts as saying in the preface of his book. becoming and being conformed are identical in my mind.
Also, the practically universally held observation that people become more and more solid in their character as they age and less and less prone to deviations from that character supports the idea that God wants us to get on the right path, so to speak (biblically
), and folow that path through to completion - being just like Jesus. As I see it (along with C S Lewis) there are two paths you can go down. One leads you closer to the image of Christ and the otehr leads you further from it. Today I would say it is more important what direction a person is going than whether or not they have made a strong decision for Christ as their savior. There are those who claim to have chosen Christ yet go off in the wrong direction and cause harm to those around them and to themselves. The direction you are going is of greatest importance, not what knowledge you have.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything
1013 said above. I couldn't have said it better. One thing he may have wanted to ad though is this: We choose to be conformed to the image of Christ and in so choosing we choose to develop compatibilistic freedom, freedom which predictably chooses the right and rejects the wrong. Our becoming compatibilistic is part of our comforming to Christ's image. The more conformed we are the more we will obey Christ and reject evil and so on. There is less and less variation or spontaneity where evil in our lives is concerned. Our choices determine our being and as we live out our lives our being comes to determine our choices. Does that make sense
Jaltus?
Chance... I have never addressed you before, and I will try to respond as respectfully as possible.
Your view on the flesh & the spirit is completely backwards from biblical Christianity. Your comments about sanctification shows that your emphasis is completely on conforming & completion of the flesh. Maturity in Christ is not behavior modification, or to stop sinning. Maturity is when we have come to be totally dependent on Him, and to completely trust in the sufficiancy of God and His saving work, not ours.
Walking in the flesh is when we turn from faith in what Jesus has done through Christ's shed blood, to trusting in our efforts, works, behavior, etc. to maintain a right relationship or to be "like" Jesus. If God did not make you complete in Him when you believed, then your hope is in your ability, and not in God's.
There are those who claim to have chosen Christ yet go off in the wrong direction and cause harm to those around them and to themselves
The reason for this is because they have believed the same message that your proclaiming, and have given up because they could never attain to this "phantom christian" that the religious community has created to control their people.
You have perfectly presented the foundational teaching of a "false gospel" that incapacitates the church into self examination and obsession with the flesh.
Paul said "The mind set on the flesh, is DEATH".
In Hebrews we are told to: "set aside the sin that so easily intangles us" This is does not mean to stop sinning! It means to get your eyes off of you and what you are doing and to set your eyes on Jesus "the author & perfector of faith"!
"As you have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him". You did not receive Him through behavior modification. You received Him "by grace, through faith".
