Originally posted by freelight View Post
Originally posted by Lazy afternoon View Post

Do you believe the necessity of the blood sacrifice of Christ to save you from your sins and from Gods wrath.


Hi LA,

One of my hallmark threads here, which is no long extant (an older thread that was purged during the last system upgrade, as they were deleting major volumes of oldest material) was 'Atonement without blood' - for those who were not around years back to read any of its content,...lots of evidence was expounded upon showing there is atonement without the necessity for the shedding of blood in the OT. Some questions - Would a loving God demand a 'blood sacrifice' of an innocent man to save anyone, that this gesture would somehow move him to direct his love and mercy upon him to forgive him? God couldn't save or forgive you just by you coming to him in prayer, repenting of your sins, and committing your life to do his will??? He needs BLOOD? He needs another to suffer death? KILLING innocent animals and shedding their blood is cruel enough, but then assuming the blood of another human being has special healing powers to atone for your sins, that is even more astounding, especially when this violates the universal law of self-responsibility, where each soul suffers and dies for its own sins, and that no other person can atone for another sins. See Ezekiel 18 for starters, then consult your own conscience on this,...and review basic spiritual laws. - I understand the 'concept' but question its efficacy.

I did write an original response to your inquiry, in draft-mode, and will send if you want to discuss it more, or at least to really research and question if a 'blood-sacrfice' is valid, logical, rational, let alone efficacious. This will challenge religious beliefs here to their core, and only the truly courageous person will bravely take this subject on, and seek out the actual truth. The subject has many aspects and dimensions to it, so it would merit its very own thread again. I could create a new thread with my same old original title, but we'll see, I've got alot on my plate. With this said, a few pointers to consider before I close here, since your question could be just an honest curious inquiry, but not sure the motive behind it, and what assumptions or conclusions would be expected in your 'reaction', critical and judgmental of my answer

So to sum up a few notations now -

1) I dot NOT believe that blood-shed, or the killing of any animal/person is absolutely necessary in order that one's sins be atoned for. The blood-atonement concept can even be refuted and challenged in the OT itself, even though a sacrificial system was set up, and even though the concept-belief by analogy is carried over into the NT. - I dont worship a carnal or blood-thirsty 'god', no sorry. - not that I have anything against pagans, heck, some aspects of my theology are neo-pagan,...but blood sacrifice concepts are old pagan belief carry-overs, AND EVEN STILL....the outward sacrifice is SYMBOLIC of the soul itself surrendering to God, the blood being symbolic of the life-force(soul) in its yielding all to the Great Spirit. All these outward gestures and rituals are dramas depicting the inward movement of the soul Godward. That is all.

2) Blood does not save me from God's wrath, my own repentance and sincere re-turning to God, invites his natural embrace of me in the arms of LOVE. Does love need to slay animals or slaughter a human being to encourage itself to redeem and restore me? - again, all outward physical sacrificical acts are symbolic of the inward gesture of the soul in its repentance towards 'God',....sadly at the expense of animals in some belief-systems, and even more grave and barbaric....in human sacrifice which is AGAINST OT teaching and principle! "Thou shalt not murder". - even the age-old universal doctors oath holds! - "do no harm".

* Now to any who will rise up in passionate rebuttal and alarm at the thoughts shared above and JUDGE my eternal salvation, condemning me to hell, you will have to bear that before the presence of God in the light of his truth on this and all religious matters, since I have no fear in presenting the values and ideals of truth, love, beauty, goodness and real justice....themes and ideals at the foremost before any lover and seeker of truth. If one choose chooses to believe in the efficacy of blood-atonement, that is their perogative, but it is still just a 'belief' with varying degrees of effect, determined by one's own 'faith'. - it is wholly subjective.

I will sit on my original response and determine when I will share it next or start a new thread on 'Atonement without blood'. Another spin on the word 'atonement' is 'at-one-ment'.....being 'at-one' with God - a simply sincere repentance, a re-turning of heart, mind and soul to 'God' is all that is essential, which includes a return to RIGHT DOING. - this is the only true atonement, the return to righteousness (right-doing, doing God's will, loyalty to truth, obedience to love). - love is the fulfilling of the law.

* With all that said, there is a symbolic meaning of 'blood' and its relation to the soul (the life of the flesh is in the blood), and the soul's relationship to God, wherein the 'blood of Jesus' has potential and transforming power, - I do not deny or reject the power of Jesus BLOOD. I do however on certain moral and philosophical grounds, some points already mentioned above, question certain beliefs about 'blood-atonement' and its applications. Do note. What avails is the giving of one's soul, in surrender to God, surrending the soul-body to the Spirit, which is a kind of 'sacrifice' of 'self' to the Greater Self of God in service to LIFE. - we can explore the dynamics of 'sacrifice' and symbolism of 'blood'. More to come. - a final thought from Isaiah below -

God Has Had Enough

10 Hear the word of the Lord,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the instruction of our God,
You people of Gomorrah.

11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.

12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires [e]of you this trampling of My courts?

13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.

14 “I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15 “So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.

16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,

17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.

Again,...you can shed all the blood you want (choose your perfered religious custom or traditional means...many religions have animal sacrifice), have faith even in the blood of a god-man, demi-god or avatar (wonderful, lots of interesting correlaries there)....but only your real repentance before God is what AVAILS. 'God' is consistent,....he said DO good, DO what is right,...there are no substitutes!