Derf
Well-known member
We're not supposed to "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters"? That's a different gospel???
Peter and Paul
- Thread starter Right Divider
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Right Divider
Body part
Again, Peter was one of twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Jesus, as the minister of the circumcision, chose those twelve apostles for a purpose related to the nation of Israel.
Paul, on the other hand, was chosen after the fall of Israel (their temporary fall) to be the ONE apostle for the ONE body of Christ.
That some people object to the obvious dichotomy is their own personal problem.
Paul, on the other hand, was chosen after the fall of Israel (their temporary fall) to be the ONE apostle for the ONE body of Christ.
Rom 11:11 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
That some people object to the obvious dichotomy is their own personal problem.
Derf
Well-known member
None of which requires that there be different gospels between Peter and Paul; or the angel, for that matter.
Right Divider
Body part
1Pet 2:24-25 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (2:25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Peter calls his audience sheep (that title belongs exclusively to Israel, God's flock).
Ezek 34:30-31 (AKJV/PCE)
(34:30) Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God [am] with them, and [that] they, [even] the house of Israel, [are] my people, saith the Lord GOD. (34:31) And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, [are] men, [and] I [am] your God, saith the Lord GOD.
Note again that Peter is writing to NON-GENTILES:1Pet 2:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:11) Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; (2:12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
On the other hand...
Rom 8:36-37 (AKJV/PCE)
(8:36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (8:37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Paul says NO, we (the body of Christ) as NOT sheep.
In thirteen Pauline epistles, that is the ONLY mention that Paul makes of "sheep".
Right Divider
Body part
Peter looked forward to a future grace at Christ's return:
Paul says that the body of Christ already HAS grace freely given:
1Pet 1:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Paul says that the body of Christ already HAS grace freely given:
Rom 3:24 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Right.
Salvation was know by the scriptures.
2 Timothy 3:15 KJV
(15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Derf
Well-known member
Except that Paul's epistles are not the only place where he spoke about such things. He obviously thought of the church as a flock of sheep because:
Acts 20:28-29 KJV — Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Now "flock" means a group of sheep.
And it isn't just the two words in the two verses (spoken to the Ephesians before he went to Jerusalem knowing he would be put in chains, or worse), but he warned them of the wolves (who prey on sheep), and cautioned the overseers to "feed" the church of God. The word for feed is "ποιμαίνειν", which means "feed the flock", or take care of the sheep, and includes the word for "flock" in it. So he's calling the leaders "shepherds".
None of this will get through to you, because you have me and much of the Bible on ignore, but hopefully your willful ignorance will be the cause of someone else finding the truth.
Right Divider
Body part
1Pe 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Peter said that their salvation was yet future.
Peter knew it was the same gospel that saves both Jews and Gentiles.
And it should also be apparent that Peter did not believe it was by works of the law that saved anyone because he just admitted in verse 10 above that neither they nor any of their fathers were able to bear that yoke, so why should the Gentiles be held to that standard for salvation.
Acts 15:8-11 KJV
(8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
(9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
And it should also be apparent that Peter did not believe it was by works of the law that saved anyone because he just admitted in verse 10 above that neither they nor any of their fathers were able to bear that yoke, so why should the Gentiles be held to that standard for salvation.
Through their fall .........
Taught right of the OT scriptures.
Romans 11:11 KJV
(11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 10:19 KJV
(19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Taught right of the OT scriptures.
Deuteronomy 32:21 KJV
(21) They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
@Derf
The JW's unironic translation of that passage:
“ 28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves. ”
They don't have the KJB's "feed" because feed is BOSKE, which is found in John 21:15 &17
See also John 21:16 where the word also appears.
The JW's unironic translation of that passage:
“ 28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves. ”
They don't have the KJB's "feed" because feed is BOSKE, which is found in John 21:15 &17
Yes, he was saying to shepherd the sheep, or to "keep" them, such as in keeping and bearing arms; it's to take care of them. The good sheep keeper keeps his sheep (safe, healthy, etc.) just like the well-regulated minuteman keeps his powder dry.
See also John 21:16 where the word also appears.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
The New Covenant amended the Old Covenant, in the sense of fulfilling it, and not abolishing it. (And surely no jot nor tittle is missing from the Old Covenant, every single full Christian Bible has a complete copy of the Old Covenant in it, to this day!)
Right Divider
Body part
Firstly, this thread is about the ministries of Peter (and the eleven) and Paul. Particularly the differences in those two ministries.
Secondly, those two covenants are between God and Israel. They have NO bearing whatsoever to the body of Christ.
Derf
Well-known member
The second might have bearing on the body of Christ, if God has made one group of the two (Jews and Gentiles).
Derf
Well-known member
Or the Jews either. That's why Paul criticized Peter as hypocritical when he lived like a Gentile until the Judaizers came. Not because living like the Gentile believers was bad, but because reverting to the law was bad.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
But which law in particular? Is there a law which says descendants of Abraham and Jacob can't eat with Gentiles? Is that the law to which Peter reverted, or was it the type of food he was agreeing to eat wasn't kosher?
Derf
Well-known member
At least the one that distinguished between clean and unclean things. The Jews rightly perceived that such was typifying Gentiles, but they probably were over zealous in how they applied it. Peter seems to have gone further than just accepting Gentiles as clean, for he was "living like the Gentiles":
Galatians 2:14 KJV — But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Notice that it was THE gospel, that Peter was supposed to be walking in.
The not eating with Gentiles seems to be inferred due to the factor that the Jewish families were to be separate (ie. not mingle with) Gentiles.
And the instruction of not eating with Gentiles was made even before Moses and the law given at Sinai.
The instruction stemmed from what Abraham had previously commanded of his Jewish children.
Among the Dead Sea Scrolls was the book of Jubilees, and it states:
Jubilees 22:16
And do you, my son Yacob, remember my words, And observe the commandments of Abraham, your father: Separate yourself from the nations, And eat not with them: And do not according to their works, And become not their associate; For their works are unclean, And all their ways are a pollution and an abomination and uncleanness.
This instruction from Abraham appears to have become a set tradition to be followed since we see a history of Jews not wanting to eat with Gentiles.
Yes, "THE gospel".
If Paul thought Peter was commissioned to be associating with the circumcision only and teaching a different gospel to the circumcision then at least 2 questions should arise from the verse you quoted above:
1. Why was Peter living in a Gentile community?
2. Why would Paul be upset with Peter if Peter wasn't even supposed to be complying with the same gospel?