program

[Catholic Crusader]

THIS is where the fun begins...even if you ask Catholics...are they
Proconsular or anti?

Why would any Catholic be Proconsular

protridentine or not?

Both are acceptable according to the Holy See. Me? I like the hybrid: The New Mass, but done in Latin.

conservative or liberal?

Liberal Catholics are generally fake Catholics, like Pelosi or Biden or Kerry. They love to show off their ashes on Ash Wednesday, then they proceed to support all manner of anti-Catholic evils like abortion or gay marriage.

for or agin celibacy?

Celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine. A faithful Catholic can be for or against it in principle, but a priest cannot disobey the discipline. (NOTE: That discipline only applies to Latin Rite Catholic priests, and even then there have been some exceptions.)

Women's libber or not?

Depends on how you define it.

charismatic?

Most are not, but again, the Charismatic movement is approved by the Holy See. Personally, I am not.

Augustine or Origen?

Augustine of course! There is a reason why Augistine is called Saint Augustine and Origen is just plain old Origen.

Aquinas or Erasmus?

I like St Aquinas.

 

[freelight]

Renewal of the Spirit.......

Renewal of the Spirit.......

Most are not, but again, the Charismatic movement is approved by the Holt See. Personally, I am not.

Dont forget, all the gifts, powers and anointing of the Spirit are still present, - its a matter of receiving and appropriating such

Augustine of course! There is a reason why Augistine is called Saint Augustine and Origen is just plain old Origen.

Well of course, since Augustine developed his teaching within a more formal theological context of his times consonant with the Roman Catholic system and adopted thereby, as the church empire allowed for such and his teachings were not all too heretical but consistent enough to to be maintained as 'orthodox'.

Origen, a most excellent and revered church Father, theologian and philosopher (184 - 254 AD) also held his own as a 'doctor' of the early church in his times, although certain points of his theology were questioned and only later deemed 'heresy' by later chuch councils after much controversy within ongoing doctrinal debates and power struggles ('religious politics'). His works or philosophical concepts (the ones controversial) werent officially 'anathematized' until a few hundred years later when councils were 'honing' their creeds and dogmas.

Within Christian theology/metaphysics I'm more of the Alexandrian school, with its resonance with neo-platonic Gnosticism and esoteric/allegorical systems of interpretation and exegesis. As a universalist at heart, I hold my own as an eclectic mystic, exploring the esoteric traditions within both east and western religious traditions, so Origen holds a special place as a true pioneer within the unfolding of 'gnosis' in the budding church. The controversy of 'reincarnation' is also being treated in our thread here, of which Origen's doctrine of 'pre-existence of souls' will be treated in due time.

As shared earlier on the thread.....alot comes down to the various 'programs' and 'programming' of doctrines and dogmas as they are developed...and currently in the light of advancing knowledge, spiritual wisdom, and artistic expression. In an age of 'progressive revelation' the unfolding of 'logos' is key to our spiritual evolution, where older concepts may be expanded, renewed or substituted altogether with the dawning of new truths and insights.

No one denomination or organization can contain the Spirit of God or capitolize the truth therof, since Truth is Universal and the Light of 'God' available to all who will receive it, within whatever school or form it may appear.


pj

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

THIS is where the fun begins...even if you ask Catholics...are they
Proconsular or anti?
protridentine or not?
conservative or liberal?
for or agin celibacy?
Women's libber or not?
charismatic?
Augustine or Origen?
Aquinas or Erasmus?

Add Thomist or Molinist to the above.

AMR

 

[Totton Linnet]

Add Thomist or Molinist to the above.

AMR

I think Aquinas are the Thomist crowd...but there is Scrotus

Then there were the fierce, if now burned out, fights between the Jesuits and the Benedictines...the Franciscans against the Dominicans

 

[Totton Linnet]

Why would any Catholic be Proconsular

Both are acceptable according to the Holy See. Me? I like the hybrid: The New Mass, but done in Latin.

Liberal Catholics are generally fake Catholics, like Pelosi or Biden or Kerry. They love to show off their ashes on Ash Wednesday, then they proceed to support all manner of anti-Catholic evils like abortion or gay marriage.

Celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine. A faithful Catholic can be for or against it in principle, but a priest cannot disobey the discipline. (NOTE: That discipline only applies to Latin Rite Catholic priests, and even then there have been some exceptions.)

Depends on how you define it.

Most are not, but again, the Charismatic movement is approved by the Holy See. Personally, I am not.

Augustine of course! There is a reason why Augistine is called Saint Augustine and Origen is just plain old Origen.

I like St Aquinas.

Nice response...but those little sectaries are there aren't they...there is similar good will among the protestant divisions.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Nice response...but those little sectaries are there aren't they...there is similar good will among the protestant divisions.

But among protestant denominations, there are actual differences in doctrines. Not so in Catholicism. As I said in another thread regarding Catholic "Rites", "Rites are not denominations. All Catholic Rites are unified in doctrines and beliefs. Rites have more to do with cultural differences, the manner in which Mass is celebrated, choice of music, language, vestments, etc."

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I think Aquinas are the Thomist crowd...but there is Scrotus

Then there were the fierce, if now burned out, fights between the Jesuits and the Benedictines...the Franciscans against the Dominicans

OK. Just wanted to make things more explicit when it comes to Romanist views. Knowing whether the person is Thomist or Molinist as relates to theology proper (doctrine of God) is an important distinction.

AMR

 

[Town Heretic]

OK. Just wanted to make things more explicit when it comes to Romanist views. Knowing whether the person is Thomist or Molinist as relates to theology proper (doctrine of God) is an important distinction.

AMR

It might be interesting for someone to come up with a checklist of significant distinctions and their meanings. I'd bet a great many people know what they believe but not what theological label would correspond with it.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

It might be interesting for someone to come up with a checklist of significant distinctions and their meanings. I'd bet a great many people know what they believe but not what theological label would correspond with it.

Heh, that would be some list. Someone could start here and afterwards it would be easier to sort out their distinctives.

AMR

 

[Catholic Crusader]

OK. Just wanted to make things more explicit when it comes to Romanist views..........

Are you aware that the word "Romanist" is listed as an insult in all dictionaries?

If you are then you're a bigot for using it.
If you are not then you are ignorant for using it.

~ ~ ~ ~

Ro·man·ist (r

m

-n

st)
n.
. . . 1. Offensive One who professes Roman Catholicism.

> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Romanist

 

[Totton Linnet]

But among protestant denominations, there are actual differences in doctrines. Not so in Catholicism. As I said in another thread regarding Catholic "Rites", "Rites are not denominations. All Catholic Rites are unified in doctrines and beliefs. Rites have more to do with cultural differences, the manner in which Mass is celebrated, choice of music, language, vestments, etc."

This is not quite true, for the difference between Augustine/Aquinas on the one hand and Pelagius/Erasmus on the other are exactly the same as the Arminius Calvin divide. The difference between Arian and the Trinitarians, the scholastics and the humanists all these are huge doctrinal matters papered over. The true unity of the Catholic church surrounds not doctrines but the sacraments and adherence to Papal authority...and that is a sham too for how many Catholic couples obey in the matter of birth control...we won't mention abortion.

 

[Totton Linnet]

OK. Just wanted to make things more explicit when it comes to Romanist views. Knowing whether the person is Thomist or Molinist as relates to theology proper (doctrine of God) is an important distinction.

AMR

Yes they are doctrinal differences but like the Arian Trinity divide it is all papered over.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

This is not quite true, for the difference between Augustine/Aquinas on the one hand and Pelagius/Erasmus on the other are exactly the same as the Arminius Calvin divide. The difference between Arian and the Trinitarians, the scholastics and the humanists all these are huge doctrinal matters papered over. The true unity of the Catholic church surrounds not doctrines but the sacraments and adherence to Papal authority...and that is a sham too for how many Catholic couples obey in the matter of birth control...we won't mention abortion.

You have a mixed bag there.

The are many things that the Church has not defined as Dei Fide. For example, you can believe in the literal creation narrative or you can believe the world is millions of yers old and either way you are a faithful Catholic because the Church has not formally defined the matter one way or another.

The difference between Augustine/Aquinas is a bad example since there is a 1,000 year divide between the two.

As for Arius, he was an arch-heritic and Arianism is definitely condemned by the Church. There is no "papering over" as you allege.

With regards to abortion: The Church cannot control what individual Catholics in the pew believe. We don't burn people at the
stake anymore, unfortunately. Any Catholic who accepts things like abortion or homosexuals getting married embraces heresy. Church doctrine is quite clear on that. Those Catholics may say otherwise, but that is because they are ignorant. In fact, most Catholics don't even know that if they have an abortion they are automatically excommunicated. Canon Law 1398 provides that, "a person who procures a successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication." This means that at the very moment that the abortion is successfully accomplished, the woman and all formal conspirators are excommunicated.

There are probably lots of Catholics walking around who don't even know they are excommunicate, and are receiving the sacraments sacreligiously.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Not quite, in quoting Arian and the trins we have a classic Catholic fudge...the Nicene creed was formulated specifically for the purpose of saving the church from falling apart...Arianism was put under ban...but accepted on the ground and remained in the church. I linked Augustine and Aquinas and Pelagius and Erasmus together on purpose for they are the divide that has always been in the post apostolic church and which was the divide at the time of the reformation between works based salvation and salvation by grace through faith. This is still the divide between Catholic and Protestant.

Many Protestant have backslidden to the works based position and are Catholic at heart.

As for the abortion issue...well I don't want to be too harsh....but...well

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Are you aware that the word "Romanist"...

I am quite aware of how I intend the use of all the words that I use, but thanks for asking. :AMR:

AMR

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Not quite, in quoting Arian and the trins we have a classic Catholic fudge...the Nicene creed was formulated specifically for the purpose of saving the church from falling apart...Arianism was put under ban...but accepted on the ground and remained in the church. I linked Augustine and Aquinas and Pelagius and Erasmus together on purpose for they are the divide that has always been in the post apostolic church and which was the divide at the time of the reformation between works based salvation and salvation by grace through faith. This is still the divide between Catholic and Protestant.

Many Protestant have backslidden to the works based position and are Catholic at heart.

As for the abortion issue...well I don't want to be too harsh....but...well

I think I know my own Church's doctrines.

You said, "Arianism was put under ban...but accepted on the ground." That may well be, but remember what I said about abortion: "The Church cannot control what individual Catholics in the pew believe." If Arianism was accepted by some after the Church condemned it, that only reflects on those individuals. It does not equate into any "fudge".

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Let me mention something else that non-Catholics are usually not aware of regarding Catholic teachings:

There are five levels of Catholic teaching.

At the top is what we call the Deposit; this consists of the original teachings that Christ gave the Apostles. It was preserved in two forms: Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition. Apostolic Tradition was passed from bishop to bishop orally for about two hundred years, and eventually was all recorded in the writings of the Patristic Fathers, the early Christian leaders during that period. The Deposit is Divinely insipired, it is infallible, and it cannot be altered or changed.

Next down on the list is Dogma. Dogma is a definition of, or a clarification of, some doctrine or controversial point. It comes from two different sources: the assembled bishops in a ecumencial council issue it in a pronouncement; or a reigning Pope makes an infallible statement. A Dogma is also infallible, and it also cannot be changed; it also cannot contradict the Deposit or a previously defined Dogma. It should be noted that when a Pope makes an infallible statement, he must be speaking about a matter of faith and morals, he must be speaking in the role of universal bishop of the Catholic Church, and again, what he says cannot contradict the Deposit, previous Dogma, or a previous infallible statement. An example of a Dogma would be the definition of the Holy Trinity.

Next comes Doctrine. This is an explanation of a teaching. It is not infallible, and it may be changed, abandoned, condemned, resurrected, what have you. An example of a Doctrine would be the concept of limbo, which was abandoned after the 2nd Vatican Council.

After that comes Discipline, which is basically a practice the Church imposes for one reason or another. It is not infallible, and can be changed if the Church sees fit. Examples of this would be clerical celibacy and fast days during Lent.

Last comes Devotion, which is a system of prayer or practices that may be employed by the individual believer. It is also not infallible and may be used or abdandoned at will. Examples of this would be the Rosary and virtually all Marian apparitions/devotions.

So, while lower levels of Catholic teaching have changed from time to time throughout history, nothing in the top two rungs have changed, nor will they. In the cases of abortion, contraception, female clergy, and active homosexuality, for example, they all fall under the bans found in Apostolic Tradition, which, as was previously mentioned, is infallible and cannot be changed.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Are you aware that the word "Romanist" is listed as an insult in all dictionaries?

If you are then you're a bigot for using it.
If you are not then you are ignorant for using it.

~ ~ ~ ~

Ro·man·ist (r

m

-n

st)
n.
. . . 1. Offensive One who professes Roman Catholicism.

> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Romanist

I am quite aware of how I intend the use of all the words that I use, but thanks for asking. :AMR:

So you admit you're a bigot.
Thanks for answering.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Let me mention something else that non-Catholics are usually not aware of regarding Catholic teachings:

There are five levels of Catholic teaching.

At the top is what we call the Deposit; this consists of the original teachings that Christ gave the Apostles. It was preserved in two forms: Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition. Apostolic Tradition was passed from bishop to bishop orally for about two hundred years, and eventually was all recorded in the writings of the Patristic Fathers, the early Christian leaders during that period. The Deposit is Divinely insipired, it is infallible, and it cannot be altered or changed.

Next down on the list is Dogma. Dogma is a definition of, or a clarification of, some doctrine or controversial point. It comes from two different sources: the assembled bishops in a ecumencial council issue it in a pronouncement; or a reigning Pope makes an infallible statement. A Dogma is also infallible, and it also cannot be changed; it also cannot contradict the Deposit or a previously defined Dogma. It should be noted that when a Pope makes an infallible statement, he must be speaking about a matter of faith and morals, he must be speaking in the role of universal bishop of the Catholic Church, and again, what he says cannot contradict the Deposit, previous Dogma, or a previous infallible statement. An example of a Dogma would be the definition of the Holy Trinity.

Next comes Doctrine. This is an explanation of a teaching. It is not infallible, and it may be changed, abandoned, condemned, resurrected, what have you. An example of a Doctrine would be the concept of limbo, which was abandoned after the 2nd Vatican Council.

After that comes Discipline, which is basically a practice the Church imposes for one reason or another. It is not infallible, and can be changed if the Church sees fit. Examples of this would be clerical celibacy and fast days during Lent.

Last comes Devotion, which is a system of prayer or practices that may be employed by the individual believer. It is also not infallible and may be used or abdandoned at will. Examples of this would be the Rosary and virtually all Marian apparitions/devotions.

So, while lower levels of Catholic teaching have changed from time to time throughout history, nothing in the top two rungs have changed, nor will they. In the cases of abortion, contraception, female clergy, and active homosexuality, for example, they all fall under the bans found in Apostolic Tradition, which, as was previously mentioned, is infallible and cannot be changed.

Yass, yass, all anyone ever need do is to go back to the deposit. All that has been builded on top of Christ and the apostles will be burned down, be SURE of that...a very great many Catholics hold onto all that has been builded upon and have hardly a clue as to the deposit.

God is good He knows the human heart.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I think I know my own Church's doctrines.

You said, "Arianism was put under ban...but accepted on the ground." That may well be, but remember what I said about abortion: "The Church cannot control what individual Catholics in the pew believe." If Arianism was accepted by some after the Church condemned it, that only reflects on those individuals. It does not equate into any "fudge".

Nay it is all rotten compromise, the Emperor ordered them to devise a formula by which the Arians [deniers of Christ divinity] could be kept on board and this is what the bishops did.