Kentucky clerk who refused gay couples taken into federal custody; ordered jailed

Christian Liberty

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I believe in religious liberty, but this is a civil job she has, and the law is the law, and she should either have issued the licenses or left her post. Some will disagree with me, but this woman is out for fame and money, IMO.

Yeah, I don't agree with this. Mostly because of the lesser magistrate doctrine. I MIGHT agree with you (have to think on it) if this were Kentucky law, but as we stand now the courts are corrupt and need to be defied.
 

aCultureWarrior

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFR7
I believe in religious liberty, but this is a civil job she has, and the law is the law, and she should either have issued the licenses or left her post.


Yeah, I don't agree with this. Mostly because of the lesser magistrate doctrine. I MIGHT agree with you (have to think on it) if this were Kentucky law, but as we stand now the courts are corrupt and need to be defied.

Your little Libertarian student just contradicted himself. Either he believes in religious liberty or he doesn't. Obviously he believes that current secular humanist laws outweigh God-given rights given to us by our Founding Fathers in the various documents that they wrote.
 

Traditio

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Well, this could then be expanded by looking at the function of homosexual relationships in nature. They are believed to have a primary function biologically speaking as well, at least in social animals that live in packs or forms of proto-societies (if they didnt, it is very unlikely that they would have survived at such a steady ratio given natural selection). If such a basic function can be discerned, then there is a natural telos of homosexual relationships as well as heterosexual ones.

This could supplement what I wrote above. Then homosexual relationships in human beings would be a higher emergent form of a basic natural function of homosexuality, as is found in several animal species, particlarily social animals.

The idea that heterosexual relationships and the generation it provides is a form of natural perfection is thus invalid, it simply is not the case in nature, since homosexual relationships seems to have its own necessary function in nature as well.

Even if you want to go the route of natural law, although I remain skeptical of its applicability (at least in very particular issues, since it seems to rely heavily upon interpretations and presuppositions), at least do it in light of current biological knowledge. You could say that there has been some developments in what we know about the biological world and complex dynamics and functions in animals and plants since St.Thomas and Aristotle.

This argument holds no water. Before I reply to it, though, I'd like to point out that you are the one, not I, who are fixated on "nature" in the sense of "what happens in nature," and it is you who are the one, and not I, who are making "naturalistic" arguments. [To be clear, my argument is not tied down to any particular doctrine of the natural sciences; the fact that you are insisting on bringing that in is just puzzling.] Just an observation.

That being said:

None of what you've said changes the fact that the animals in question are making use of the generative power of the vegetative or plant soul even when committing homosexual acts. This is a point that you seem to be ignoring deliberately: the reproductive faculty is not uniquely a power of the animal (i.e., sensate) or rational soul(s). It's a power of the vegetative soul.

You will insist that certain animals commit homosexual acts for reasons other than reproductive purposes and that homosexual acts serve a "natural" purpose ("natural," of course in the sense of biological or evolutionary or some such similar silliness; when I or an Aristotelian or a Thomist uses the word "natural," we don't mean what you mean; we mean "nature" in the sense of "phusis," i.e., in the sense of the essence or quiddity of a thing conceived as the principle of its innate drives, tendencies, etc.; the nature of a stone, i.e., its essence as a stone, is the source of its tendency to fall to the ground when dropped).

I will ask: are these animals making use of the generative power or not?

If you say "yes," then I'll answer that, by your very admission, you've admitted that your arguments are irrelevent to the case.

If you say "no," then you invite ridicule. It would be like asserting that I don't make use of the nutritive power of the plant soul when I am at a dinner party primarily for social reasons. Such an assertion is patently ridiculous and invites, not a rational rebuttal (because none is necessary), but laughter that someone would say such a silly thing.
 

StanJ

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Did Jesus die so sinners could keep on sinning?
I remember Jesus saying something about "go and sin no more"

Jesus died for SIN...ALL sin...period. It's kind of impossible for me to explain the Bible to someone who has already denied many of it's truths.
 

StanJ

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Actually it is Stan. A Christian has gone to jail because the sodomite movement infiltrated God's institution of marriage and she refused to sell out God.

God doesn't have an institution fool. God created marriage and like EVERYTHING, it was corrupted by sinful man. Are you RCC? That would explain a lot.

I love it when you fly your LGBTQ colors Stan. Thanks for taking my bait.

I love it when you open your mouth and remove all doubt that you are a fool. Keep kicking at the goads aCW. One day you'll wake up where you least expect it.
 

ok doser

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Jesus died for SIN...ALL sin...period. It's kind of impossible for me to explain the Bible to someone who has already denied many of it's truths.

so homosexuals who reject His Word and engage in perverted activities aren't sinning?
 

kmoney

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Daniel was a government official.
There were some wicked men that wanted to get rid of Daniel, and the only way they could find was to change the law so that Daniel would have to violate his religious beliefs or be found guilty of breaking the law.
They got the law changed, but Daniel refused to compromise his beliefs and was thrown to the lions.

This is recorded in Daniel 6.

That's not comparable to Davis. If the government bans prayer, even in your own home, and someone goes to jail over it then I will join in your support of that person. This isn't even close to that though.
 

Angel4Truth

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That's not comparable to Davis. If the government bans prayer, even in your own home, and someone goes to jail over it then I will join in your support of that person. This isn't even close to that though.

So you think prayer is the only freedom of religion that someone should have?
 

kmoney

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Do you think government employees should have no freedom of religion or it should be checked at the door of employment?

No, I wouldn't say they should have no freedom of religion. However, I do think that a public employee may have more restrictions based on being an actor of the state. Beyond that it's hard to say more because each situation could be different.

In the present case, I think what the judge offered to Davis was a reasonable compromise. I think it's fine to look for an option that allows the person to avoid violating their conscience and that still allows the law to be carried out. And I feel like the judge had one. But Davis refused. I have almost zero sympathy for her at this point. She should resign or keep her job and let her deputy clerks issue the licenses.
 

Angel4Truth

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No, I wouldn't say they should have no freedom of religion. However, I do think that a public employee may have more restrictions based on being an actor of the state. Beyond that it's hard to say more because each situation could be different.

Freedom of religion in the constitution doesnt say anything about limits per persons job, and applies to everyone equally. It does not have any limits or caveats as per "if you work for the government".

In the present case, I think what the judge offered to Davis was a reasonable compromise. I think it's fine to look for an option that allows the person to avoid violating their conscience and that still allows the law to be carried out. And I feel like the judge had one. But Davis refused. I have almost zero sympathy for her at this point. She should resign or keep her job and let her deputy clerks issue the licenses.

A reasonable compromise would be to allow others to sign off on them. Which she asked for, the judge here has no right to demand to she sign off on them. They are breaking kentucky law right now by issuing them without a signature. Should they and the judge be tossed in jail too, since they are breaking kentucky law?

Then we have another issue here, just because the supreme court ruled denial unconstitutional, its still up to the states to adjust their law accordingly, this judge got ahead of himself and pretended it was already in kentucky before the legislature changed the law.

Also we have an issue where the law conflicts, that needs to be resolved. Its also unconstitutional to abridge ones freedom of religion. The law is now in conflict.
 

kmoney

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A reasonable compromise would be to allow others to sign off on them. Which she asked for, the judge here has no right to demand to she sign off on them. They are breaking kentucky law right now by issuing them without a signature. Should they and the judge be tossed in jail too, since they are breaking kentucky law?
Having the deputies sign off on them is fine too. I don't know why the judge didn't offer that.

Then we have another issue here, just because the supreme court ruled denial unconstitutional, its still up to the states to adjust their law accordingly, this judge got ahead of himself and pretended it was already in kentucky before the legislature changed the law.

Also we have an issue where the law conflicts, that needs to be resolved. Its also unconstitutional to abridge ones freedom of religion. The law is now in conflict.
I can't really comment here because I'm not sure how this generally works (when the Court invalidates a law and then states have to get in line). I don't think it's the primary issue though. Because let's say KY changes their laws to be aligned with the Supreme Court decision, Davis would still refuse to issue the licenses so we'd just be dealing with this in a few months, or whenever KY got their laws changed, instead of now.
 

Angel4Truth

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Having the deputies sign off on them is fine too. I don't know why the judge didn't offer that.

Because the judge is a homo activist anti-constitionist who has broken the law himself see: Judge Who Jailed Kim Davis Ordered Students Who Opposed Homosexuality to Be Re-Educated


I can't really comment here because I'm not sure how this generally works (when the Court invalidates a law and then states have to get in line). I don't think it's the primary issue though. Because let's say KY changes their laws to be aligned with the Supreme Court decision, Davis would still refuse to issue the licenses so we'd just be dealing with this in a few months, or whenever KY got their laws changed, instead of now.

She wouldnt be in jail, and her freedom of speech and religion would be protected - more time would be allotted to resolve the conflict.

But this judge thinks hes a king apparently.
 

kmoney

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Because the judge is a homo activist anti-constitionist who has broken the law himself see: Judge Who Jailed Kim Davis Ordered Students Who Opposed Homosexuality to Be Re-Educated
Just skimming through what you posted, I wouldn't have agreed with that ruling.

She wouldnt be in jail, and her freedom of speech and religion would be protected - more time would be allotted to resolve the conflict.

But this judge thinks hes a king apparently.
Wouldn't she still end up in jail if she refused to issue the licenses? Or are you thinking KY would make a law that allows her to avoid it? I'm not following you here.
 

Angel4Truth

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Just skimming through what you posted, I wouldn't have agreed with that ruling.


Wouldn't she still end up in jail if she refused to issue the licenses? Or are you thinking KY would make a law that allows her to avoid it? I'm not following you here.

No, there is no law to put you in jail if you refuse to issue a license because there is no law yet to allow gays to marry in kentucky, that hasnt happened yet - the legislature hasn't met yet to rewrite the law. The plaintiffs even asked that she not go to jail but be fined, he said no, she asked just that her name not be attached to them, he said no, he wanted her in jail. Then he ordered they be issued anyway, when they are illegal in kentucky without the clerk signing them, thats a state law, hes broken that law now too.

Why isnt he in jail, since breaking the law now means jail to some people? Where are the crys for him to serve time?

The judge is breaking the law, just like he did in the other case.
 

kmoney

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No, there is no law to put you in jail if you refuse to issue a license because there is no law yet to allow gays to marry in kentucky, that hasnt happened yet - the legislature hasnt met yet to rewrite the law.

The judge is breaking the law, just like he did in the other case.

I think we were talking past each other. I was talking about once KY does adjust their laws. Hypothetically, let's say that KY has their laws changed. Kim would still refuse and we'd be dealing with this same situation. And that's what I've been talking about, not about what the judge should do right now while KY hasn't yet adjusted their laws to follow the SC's decision.
 
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