Is sinning a necessary condition

[Right Divider]

These are NOT the same:

Matt 6:14-15 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: (6:15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

​

Eph 4:32 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.​

If you cannot tell the difference... you need to learn to rightly divide.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, He is.



Where did I say that?



You literally just quoted that one. Do I have to respond to it again? Was my first response to it not sufficient in some way?



Did you even bother to read post 15?



Where have I ever said that? You sure do like putting words in people's mouths...



First of all, that's Colossians 3:12-14, not Colossians 1.

Second, "Forgiving one another . . . even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do"!

Christ did not and does not just forgive anyone for no reason.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:3 NKJV

IF HE REPENTS, forgive him.

----

But what does ANY of this have to do with your claim that a Christian must ask forgiveness from God every time he sins? Repent? YES! Ask for forgiveness? No. Ask God to help you not commit that sin anymore? ABSOLUTELY!

But not one of these passages support the claim that we have to ask for forgiveness every time we sin.

What I said above stands:

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:19-23 NKJV

If you are a Christian, does that not mean you are holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight?

Or do you think that what Christ has cleansed, you can make dirty again?

Once again you ignore Jesus' words.

Matthew 18: 21 ¶Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Once again you ignore Jesus' words.

I haven't done so at all, let alone "once again."

More false accusations.

Matthew 18: 21 ¶Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Humans forgiving humans for sins committed against once another is a different topic than God forgiving humans for all of their sins against Him. Are you trying to change the topic again?

Why did you ignore Luke 17:3?

Not one of these passages you've given so far supports the claim that we have to ask for forgiveness from God every time we sin against Him.

What I said above stands:

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:19-23 NKJV

If you are a Christian, does that not mean you are holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight?

Or do you think that what Christ has cleansed, you can make dirty again?

 

[Gary K]

I haven't done so at all, let alone "once again."

More false accusations.



Humans forgiving humans for sins committed against once another is a different topic than God forgiving humans for all of their sins against Him. Are you trying to change the topic again?

Why did you ignore Luke 17:3?

Not one of these passages you've given so far supports the claim that we have to ask for forgiveness from God every time we sin against Him.

What I said above stands:

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:19-23 NKJV

If you are a Christian, does that not mean you are holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight?

Or do you think that what Christ has cleansed, you can make dirty again?

Now you sound like Hoping when he claimed to be perfect. We don't have to sin but when we do we need to ask forgiveness. If you hurt your wife's/girlfriend's feelings do you apologize to her? If we love Jesus we can do no less for Him.

In the OT God compares our relationship to Him to marriage.

Isaiah 50: 1 Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Jeremiah 3: 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Now you sound like Hoping

No, I don't.

when he claimed to be perfect.

Not what I'm saying. Try again.

We don't have to sin but when we do we need to ask forgiveness.

I've already been forgiven.

That's what it means for God to forgive you of ALL your sins, Gary!

ALL OF THEM.

Or was Christ's shed blood not sufficient payment for ALL sins?

If you hurt your wife's/girlfriend's feelings do you apologize to her? If we love Jesus we can do no less for Him.

Apologizing is not asking for forgiveness.

In the OT God compares our relationship to Him to marriage.

Isaiah 50: 1 Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

This has nothing to do with what we're

Now you sound like Hoping

No, I don't.

when he claimed to be perfect.

Not what I'm saying. Try again.

We don't have to sin but when we do we need to ask forgiveness.

I've already been forgiven.

That's what it means for God to forgive you of ALL your sins, Gary!

ALL OF THEM.

NO EXCEPTIONS!

If you hurt your wife's/girlfriend's feelings do you apologize to her? If we love Jesus we can do no less for Him.

Apologizing is not asking for forgiveness.

In the OT God compares our relationship to Him to marriage.

Isaiah 50: 1 Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

This has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Jeremiah 3: 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

This also has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

BOTH of those passages are talking about the specific relationship God had with Israel.

Try again. about.

Jeremiah 3: 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

This also has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

[Gary K]

No, I don't.



Not what I'm saying. Try again.



I've already been forgiven.

That's what it means for God to forgive you of ALL your sins, Gary!

ALL OF THEM.

Or was Christ's shed blood not sufficient payment for ALL sins?



Apologizing is not asking for forgiveness.



This has nothing to do with what we're

No, I don't.



Not what I'm saying. Try again.



I've already been forgiven.

That's what it means for God to forgive you of ALL your sins, Gary!

ALL OF THEM.

NO EXCEPTIONS!



Apologizing is not asking for forgiveness.



This also has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

BOTH of those passages are talking about the specific relationship God had with Israel.

Try again. about.



This also has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

I could have sworn you said:

Where have I ever said that? You sure do like putting words in people's mouths...

That was what you said when I said you don't think Jesus' words don't apply to you as you consider Him OC which only applies to Israel.

If that has nothing to do with what we're talking about why do you keep bringing it up?

 

[Gary K]

Just out of curiosity, what do you do with the following scripture as you consider yourself holy?

Phillippians 3: 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I could have sworn you said:

You shouldn't swear.

Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Where have I ever said that? You sure do like putting words in people's mouths...

Yes, I did in fact say that. Problem?

That was what you said when I said

Correct.

you don't think Jesus' words don't apply to you

I never said that. Why would you think that?

as you consider Him OC

I presume by "OC" you mean "Old Covenant"... whatever that's supposed to mean...

which only applies to Israel.

Both the New Covenant and the Old Covenant apply only to Israel.

If that has nothing to do with what we're talking about why do you keep bringing it up?

Because you keep taking what Jesus said SPECIFICALLY to Israel and trying to apply it to the Body of Christ today.

And it's because you do not rightly divide.

Just out of curiosity, what do you do with the following scripture as you consider yourself holy?

Phillippians 3: 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

I never said I consider myself holy.

You're not reading the verses I posted.

Go back and read Colossians 1:19-23 again.

Read what Paul said.

Then explain how you got "[JudgeRightly] thinks that he's holy" out of that, when the passage says nothing of the sort.

 

[Gary K]

You shouldn't swear.

Let your yes be yes and your no be no.



Yes, I did in fact say that. Problem?



Correct.



I never said that. Why would you think that?



I presume by "OC" you mean "Old Covenant"... whatever that's supposed to mean...



Both the New Covenant and the Old Covenant apply only to Israel.



Because you keep taking what Jesus said SPECIFICALLY to Israel and trying to apply it to the Body of Christ today.

And it's because you do not rightly divide.



I never said I consider myself holy.

You're not reading the verses I posted.

Go back and read Colossians 1:19-23 again.

Read what Paul said.

Then explain how you got "[JudgeRightly] thinks that he's holy" out of that, when the passage says nothing of the sort.

OK. Sorry, I misread your meaning in a post you made a few posts back about being holy.

I'll stick with what Jesus said as I prefer going to the horses mouth, so to speak. You and I will never come to agreement on these issues.

 

[Right Divider]

Those that say "I'll just stick with Jesus" are blatantly and almost blasphemously ignoring Jesus' latest apostle! It's down right sickening and it's one of the reasons that Churchianity is such a divided mess today!

JESUS CALLED PAUL.

Jesus inspired Paul to COMPETE THE WORD OF GOD.

Col 1:25-29 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:25) Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (1:26) [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (1:27) To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (1:28) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: (1:29) Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.​

​

Paul's epistles are part of the WORD OF GOD! AND are the NEWEST and most CURRENT revelations from God!

 

[JudgeRightly]

OK. Sorry, I misread your meaning in a post you made a few posts back about being holy.

See, you can apologize without asking for forgiveness.

I'll stick with what Jesus said as I prefer going to the horses mouth, so to speak.

So why not listen to what Paul said, too? Why only Jesus?

You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you get to adhere to and which parts you can just ignore.

You and I will never come to agreement on these issues.

That's because you're too stubborn to admit when you're wrong.

 

[Gary K]

See, you can apologize without asking for forgiveness.



So why not listen to what Paul said, too? Why only Jesus?

You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you get to adhere to and which parts you can just ignore.



That's because you're too stubborn to admit when you're wrong.

You don't think apologizing is a form of asking for forgiveness? If you don't apologize will your wife forgive you?

Verb: apologize u'pó-lu,jIz Express regret for something bad that one has done; acknowledge faults and mistakes "I apologized for being late"; "He apologized for the many typos"; - apologise [Brit] Defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses for by reasoning - apologise [Brit], excuse, rationalize, rationalise [Brit]

What is asking for forgiveness but apologizing?

Definition of bad.

Adjective: bad (worse,worst) bad Having undesirable or negative qualities "a bad report card"; "his sloppy appearance made a bad impression"; "a bad little boy"; "clothes in bad shape"; "a bad cut"; "bad luck"; "the news was very bad"; "the reviews were bad"; "the pay is bad"; "it was a bad light for reading"; "the movie was a bad choice" Feeling or expressing regret or sorrow or a sense of loss over something done or undone "he felt bad about breaking the vase"; - regretful, sorry Serious or severe "a bad headache"; "had a bad shock"; "a bad earthquake"; "a bad storm"; - big Feeling physical discomfort or pain ('tough' is occasionally used colloquially for 'bad') "my throat feels bad"; "she felt bad all over"; - tough (of foodstuffs) not in an edible or usable condition "bad meat"; - spoiled, spoilt Not capable of being collected "a bad debt"; - uncollectible Below average in quality or performance "a bad chess player"; "a bad recital" (linguistics) nonstandard "so-called bad grammar" Not financially safe or secure "a bad investment"; - risky, high-risk, speculative Physically unsound or diseased "has a bad back"; "a bad heart"; "bad teeth"; - unfit, unsound Capable of harming "bad air"; "smoking is bad for you" Characterized by wickedness or immorality "led a very bad life" Reproduced fraudulently "like a bad penny..."; - forged Not working properly "a bad telephone connection"; - defective

 

[JudgeRightly]

You don't think apologizing is

What I think has nothing to do with it.

a form of asking for forgiveness?

It is not a form of asking for forgiveness.

Asking for forgiveness is asking for forgiveness.

Apologizing is apologizing.

One comes before the other, and if you ask forgiveness without apologizing, it's extremely disrespectful to the one you have wronged.

If you don't apologize will your wife forgive you?

How does that in any way establish that apologizing is asking for forgiveness?

I'm the one saying that apologizing comes BEFORE asking for forgiveness. You can't use an example of my argument to defend yours. Apologizing to one's wife and asking for her forgiveness so that she forgives you after you apologize is consistent with my position, and does nothing to further yours.

What is asking for forgiveness but apologizing?

Asking for forgiveness is asking the person who was wronged to forgive, to cancel a debt.

Apologizing is not asking for forgiveness, it's simply an acknowledgement of one's debt the one who was wronged.

They are two completely and logically different concepts.

Acknowledging the debt isn't asking to cancel the debt.

Definition of bad.

I know what bad means.

Verb: apologize u'pó-lu,jIz Express regret for something bad that one has done; acknowledge faults and mistakes "I apologized for being late"; "He apologized for the many typos"; - apologise [Brit] Defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses for by reasoning - apologise [Brit], excuse, rationalize, rationalise [Brit]

Adjective: bad (worse,worst) bad Having undesirable or negative qualities "a bad report card"; "his sloppy appearance made a bad impression"; "a bad little boy"; "clothes in bad shape"; "a bad cut"; "bad luck"; "the news was very bad"; "the reviews were bad"; "the pay is bad"; "it was a bad light for reading"; "the movie was a bad choice" Feeling or expressing regret or sorrow or a sense of loss over something done or undone "he felt bad about breaking the vase"; - regretful, sorry Serious or severe "a bad headache"; "had a bad shock"; "a bad earthquake"; "a bad storm"; - big Feeling physical discomfort or pain ('tough' is occasionally used colloquially for 'bad') "my throat feels bad"; "she felt bad all over"; - tough (of foodstuffs) not in an edible or usable condition "bad meat"; - spoiled, spoilt Not capable of being collected "a bad debt"; - uncollectible Below average in quality or performance "a bad chess player"; "a bad recital" (linguistics) nonstandard "so-called bad grammar" Not financially safe or secure "a bad investment"; - risky, high-risk, speculative Physically unsound or diseased "has a bad back"; "a bad heart"; "bad teeth"; - unfit, unsound Capable of harming "bad air"; "smoking is bad for you" Characterized by wickedness or immorality "led a very bad life" Reproduced fraudulently "like a bad penny..."; - forged Not working properly "a bad telephone connection"; - defective

Please don't copy and paste formatted text into your post. It becomes unreadable in the editor.

 

[Gary K]

What I think has nothing to do with it.



It is not a form of asking for forgiveness.

Asking for forgiveness is asking for forgiveness.

Apologizing is apologizing.

One comes before the other, and if you ask forgiveness without apologizing, it's extremely disrespectful to the one you have wronged.



How does that in any way establish that apologizing is asking for forgiveness?

I'm the one saying that apologizing comes BEFORE asking for forgiveness. You can't use an example of my argument to defend yours. Apologizing to one's wife and asking for her forgiveness so that she forgives you after you apologize is consistent with my position, and does nothing to further yours.



Asking for forgiveness is asking the person who was wronged to forgive, to cancel a debt.

Apologizing is not asking for forgiveness, it's simply an acknowledgement of one's debt the one who was wronged.

They are two completely and logically different concepts.

Acknowledging the debt isn't asking to cancel the debt.



I know what bad means.



Please don't copy and paste formatted text into your post. It becomes unreadable in the editor.

So you refuse to agree with me even though you know your wife won't forgive you if you won't apologize.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So you refuse to agree with me even though you know your wife won't forgive you if you won't apologize.

Repeating your argument when I've already addressed it won't progress the conversation, Gary. Not with me, it won't.

Using an argument that is consistent with MY position doesn't advance your position.

 

[JudgeRightly]

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