Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
This is a declaration that Jesus is not Lord. Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.
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Christ gave His Life for the whole World of His Elect Rom. 8:33, His Sheep John 10:11,15. And they are of every ethnicity in the world, whether jew or gentile.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Christ has Sheep before they hear and believe, so while they are enemies and unbelievers they are still His Sheep Jn 10:16! Now reconcile that!

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One thing we can always depend on is that in this universe, cause always precedes effect, a basic notion you seem unable to grasp. Another basic law absolutely essential to reason is the Law of non-Contradiction which states that two opposite ideas cannot both be true simultaneously.

No one can be a completely good tree and a diseased tree. No one can bear good fruit yet bear nothing but thorns. No one can be a friend of God and His enemy. We cannot serve God and money. We cannot serve two Masters. If we do will love one and hate the other. I do not have to reconcile such things because they are absurdities.

When speaking prophetically, God often "calls things that are not as though they were." When He does so He is not saying that the unrealized prophecy has been realized. It means that He speaks AS IF the future event has happened. This is the common way prophecies are spoken. For instance in Romans 4:17 God tells Abraham "I have made (perfect tense) you a father of many nations" even though that would not take place for a long time. Abraham did not pretend that these children actually existed then. He waited. The word also says "Unto us a child IS born" (present tense) even though the promised child had not yet been born. Time tenses are indefinite in Hebrew and in prophecies in particular but it is really not confusing so long as you do not confuse the possible and the actual, the metaphysical for the physical, the vision of what will or might be with the knowledge of what is.

With regard to God's sheep: He knows those who will choose to accept His offer of salvation, not because He predestined them but because He knows all things.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Nanja said:
Christ gave His Life for the whole World of His Elect Rom. 8:33, His Sheep John 10:11,15. And they are of every ethnicity in the world, whether jew or gentile.
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While the word "world" (kosmos) is often given to the world of the “wicked” it is never used to describe the world of the righteous or the elect.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
One thing we can always depend on is that in this universe, cause always precedes effect, a basic notion you seem unable to grasp. Another basic law absolutely essential to reason is the Law of non-Contradiction which states that two opposite ideas cannot both be true simultaneously.

No one can be a completely good tree and a diseased tree. No one can bear good fruit yet bear nothing but thorns. No one can be a friend of God and His enemy. We cannot serve God and money. We cannot serve two Masters. If we do will love one and hate the other. I do not have to reconcile such things because they are absurdities.

When speaking prophetically, God often "calls things that are not as though they were." When He does so He is not saying that the unrealized prophecy has been realized. It means that He speaks AS IF the future event has happened. This is the common way prophecies are spoken. For instance in Romans 4:17 God tells Abraham "I have made (perfect tense) you a father of many nations" even though that would not take place for a long time. Abraham did not pretend that these children actually existed then. He waited. The word also says "Unto us a child IS born" (present tense) even though the promised child had not yet been born. Time tenses are indefinite in Hebrew and in prophecies in particular but it is really not confusing so long as you do not confuse the possible and the actual, the metaphysical for the physical, the vision of what will or might be with the knowledge of what is.

With regard to God's sheep: He knows those who will choose to accept His offer of salvation, not because He predestined them but because He knows all things.
Click to expand...
You disregard the scripture!

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Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Only God knows who the sheep truly are not the holier than thou Calvinist who sees everyone as reprobate except themselves. The thief on the cross was a sheep and he looked like a goat his whole life. Here is a principle for the Clavinists - sheep often look like goats and goats often look like sheep. Sheep blend in with the world and may never even go to church. Goats are often very religious and trust in their performance and works. So sheep live by faith and goats live by works.
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
Jesus died for the whole world. He died for the sheep and the goats. He died for the elect and the non-elect. He died for the reprobates to the Clavinist's dismay.
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Christ gave His Life exclusively for the World of the Sheep John 10:11,15, His Church Eph. 5:25, His People Mat. 1:21. They are one and the same, His Body chosen in Him Eph. 1:4 before the World began:

All the Election of Grace:

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Nanja said:
Christ gave His Life exclusively for the World of the Sheep John 10:11,15, His Church Eph. 5:25, His People Mat. 1:21. They are one and the same, His Body chosen in Him Eph. 1:4 before the World began:

All the Election of Grace:

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
Click to expand...

You're not one of the chosen ones either because you don't believe this simple verse. Calvin's army of paper soldiers are dropping like flies.
 
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