ECT Preterist, please give your understanding to. . . .

. . . this verse from the scriptures:

Zechariah 12:3 says, "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces..."

Obviously, it is not the day of the Lord, so then, what day is He referring to?

I'm not a preterist. I'm a historian first, then theology.

There is nothing obvious about it. Do you know what flattening is? Flattening is the theological belief that from the distance of the decline or exile or return of Israel after Babylon they could not see any distinction between the two comings of Messiah. That should change your obvious day of the Lord into something that has qualifications.

The passage sounds a bit like Mt 21:44.

There are cases in the DofJ of people being chopped up as food. I don't see why the passage is not about the DofJ. Trying to fight for Jerusalem was a burden and many of those people died miserably. It was a burden that was not easy nor a yoke that was light. The city was also a burden to the Romans managing it, and usually has been, even before the 'layer' of Islam on top of the underlying. It is not the heavenly city, for sure.

Cross Reference said:

. . . this verse from the scriptures:

Zechariah 12:3 says, "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces..."

Obviously, it is not the day of the Lord, so then, what day is He referring to?

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Things that would happen shortly after the piercing of his Son... keep reading.

FYI, during the Jewish uprising and subsequent destruction of the temple, Israel was a tremendous burden to the Roman Empire.

When was everyone who burdened themselves with Jerusalem ever, cut to pieces?

Ever seen the aftermath of a sword based army victorious over its enemies? Look closely at the bodies...

JUDEA CAPTA was the coin minted in Rome after the defeat of Jerusalem in 70.

Do history first, then theology.

Interplanner said:

Ever seen the aftermath of a sword based army victorious over its enemies? Look closely at the bodies...

JUDEA CAPTA was the coin minted in Rome after the defeat of Jerusalem in 70.

Do history first, then theology.

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Seek God and get them both sorted out accurately.

God's acts are in history, so we have to know on what, at where, to whom, etc., they happened. You better not read Acts. It's all that. Acts 26:26

Interplanner said:

God's acts are in history, so we have to know on what, at where, to whom, etc., they happened. You better not read Acts. It's all that. Acts 26:26

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His acts are. Now show me His ways??

I think by "ways" you mean 2P2P. That there are two programs and two peoples of God in the Bible.

God's ways are to justify us from our sins through Christ and to have this message spread worldwide. It unifies the church into one transcultural body that shocks the principalities and powers, Eph 3:10, because it proves Christ reigns while they seek to further misery and sorrow on earth.

The bogus gospel of Judaism, or what it added to this one Gospel, which Peter caved in to, was nipped in the bud by three corrections to Peter: the vision, the tongues and then Paul's face to face. It would have divided the church horribly from the very first years. It would have perpetuated 2P2P. There is none. Eph 2B-3A shows that everything is fulfilled in Christ and is one message, and fulfilled promise in Him.

I don't know 2P2P stands for. Is it found in the Bible or one of your history books?

Irrespective of that, all else you posited is a non sequitur.

btw, there are no preterists all in one group. There are partials. Any one who believes that some things were fulfilled at the 1st coming like the virgin birth are at least that much preterist.

2P2P is a chapter by the main teachers of Dispensationalism at Dallas TS. Ryrie and others. They say it is the essential definitive doctrine. The Bible has 2 programs and 2 peoples of God and they are skew. 2 gospels, 2 ways of salvation. 2 locations to final bliss, ad nauseum. They think this solves so many things. I attended one of their colleges. I never heard Eph 2B-3A or Acts 13 or Gal 3 explained the whole time. Guess why? It is a completely mistaken way of seeing the Bible.

To have a discussion, some people try to explain their questions better. You insult people for not reading your mind about "ways." It makes a person want to leave.

Interplanner said:

btw, there are no preterists all in one group. There are partials. Any one who believes that some things were fulfilled at the 1st coming like the virgin birth are at least that much preterist.

2P2P is a chapter by the main teachers of Dispensationalism at Dallas TS. Ryrie and others. They say it is the essential definitive doctrine. The Bible has 2 programs and 2 peoples of God and they are skew. 2 gospels, 2 ways of salvation. 2 locations to final bliss, ad nauseum. They think this solves so many things. I attended one of their colleges. I never heard Eph 2B-3A or Acts 13 or Gal 3 explained the whole time. Guess why? It is a completely mistaken way of seeing the Bible.

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I would agree, thus my disinterestness in being led through any of that and anything akin to it. What happened to you?

Interplanner said:

To have a discussion, some people try to explain their questions better. You insult people for not reading your mind about "ways." It makes a person want to leave.

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How may verses would it take to convince you in understanding the ways of God are different than you have been given to understand?

And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days. 1 Kings 3:14 (KJV)

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Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father. 1 Kings 11:33 (KJV)

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And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee. 1 Kings 11:38 (KJV)

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Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps? Job 31:4 (KJV)

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I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue: I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me. Psalm 39:1 (KJV)

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Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways! Psalm 81:13 (KJV)

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Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Psalm 95:10 (KJV)

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O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes! Psalm 119:5 (KJV)

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I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes. Psalm 119:26 (KJV)

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I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto thy testimonies. Psalm 119:59 (KJV)

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I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee. Psalm 119:168 (KJV)

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Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. Psalm 139:3 (KJV)

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Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. Proverbs 8:32 (KJV)

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My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. Proverbs 23:26 (KJV)

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For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isaiah 55:8 (KJV)

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For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:9 (KJV)

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Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. Isaiah 58:2 (KJV)

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He hath inclosed my ways with hewn stone, he hath made my paths crooked. Lamentations 3:9 (KJV)

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He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate. Lamentations 3:11 (KJV)

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Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Ezekiel 18:29 (KJV)

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Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. Zechariah 3:7 (KJV)

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Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law. Malachi 2:9 (KJV)

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For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church. 1 Corinthians 4:17 (KJV)

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Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. Hebrews 3:10 (KJV)

Interplanner said:

btw, there are no preterists all in one group. There are partials. Any one who believes that some things were fulfilled at the 1st coming like the virgin birth are at least that much preterist.

2P2P is a chapter by the main teache - rs of Dispensationalism at Dallas TS. Ryrie and others. They say it is the essential definitive doctrine. The Bible has 2 programs and 2 peoples of God and they are skew. 2 gospels, 2 ways of salvation. 2 locations to final bliss, ad nauseum. They think this solves so many things. I attended one of their colleges. I never heard Eph 2B-3A or Acts 13 or Gal 3 explained the whole time. Guess why? It is a completely mistaken way of seeing the Bible.

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I agree with Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - there is only one way to salvation - Romans 3's:

30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Unless you are saying that prior to the Cross, men believed in the Cross.

Fact is, the issue was, and always has been faith - believing God.

Right behind the words of Romans 3 is Romans 4:

1. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

But, go ahead twist our words in your ignorance.

I seriously doubt you attended a Mid-Acts college.

You are talking about an Acts 2 Dispensational based College.

Acts 2 Dispensationalism's many holes have led many to turn, in an equal inconsistency, down one of the roads you have ended up on.

Okay, so that happened to you - an Acts 2 Dispensational confusion due to its inconsistency in the hermeneutic.

Does that give you the right to slander the Mid-Acts Dispensational perspective - a perspective all you have consistently revealed you know about is your ignorance?

Danoh said:

I agree with Mid-Acts Dispensationalism - there is only one way to salvation - Romans 3's:

30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Unless you are saying that prior to the Cross, men believed in the Cross.

Fact is, the issue was, and always has been faith - believing God.

Right behind the words of Romans 3 is Romans 4:

1. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

But, go ahead twist our words in your ignorance.

I seriously doubt you attended a Mid-Acts college.

You are talking about an Acts 2 Dispensational based College.

Acts 2 Dispensationalism's many holes have led many to turn, in an equal inconsistency, down one of the roads you have ended up on.

Okay, so that happened to you - an Acts 2 Dispensational confusion due to its inconsistency in the hermeneutic.

Does that give you the right to slander the Mid-Acts Dispensational perspective - a perspective all you have consistently revealed you know about is your ignorance?

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Would it be fair to say you are also a cessationist? I think interplanner is.

Danoh,
I think your MAD is unknowable. I know of no concise summary statement about it like there is for 2P2P. At least they have one. Your summary statement about is: "You Interplanner are ignorant." I've never thought of that as being in any of the NT doctrinal passages, but I guess you see it very clearly.

the only other gospel implied in early Acts is the mistake of Judaism due to its veil, which succeeded in sucking in Peter for a bit.

"The Scriptures [not Paul!] announced the Gospel in advance to Abraham..." (Gal 3) and it was known even before that.

Cross Reference said:

Would it be fair to say you are also a cessationist? I think interplanner is.

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It appears he and I are both cessasionist; but we are not, in an important difference.

In my Mid-Acts Dispensational understanding, God stopped temporarilydealing with Israel before 70AD [ Romans 11:25-29 ].

What I see as Interplanner's understanding is that it is borrowed from Josephus' Acts 2 error - how that God supposedly continued to deal with Israel until shortly after 70A, after which He forever ceased His Prophesied plan and Purpose in the Earth for and through that nation.

Josephus' error back then, was similar to today's Acts 2 Dispensationalist's error - who looks to current events for "history in the making."

What Acts 2D refers to as "Prophecy," thus; their "Prophecy" preachers.

What I see is that both Interplanner, and the various history writers he relies in for "what Scripture is actually talking about" have worked all this out, more or less based on history.

He and I disagree with one another.

Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is basically the understanding that there were two falls in God's creation - one in Heaven, Lucifer, Isaiah 14; one in the Earth, Adam, Gen, 3.

Re: Ephesians 1:10

Israel concerns His plan and purpose to restore His dominion over the Earth through that His Son and King of that nation as His Kingdom of Priests over the Gentile nations.

The Body, on the other hand, concerns His plan and purpose to restore His dominion over that spiritual wickedness in High places, through a New Creature in His Son as its Head; comprised of both Jew and Gentile this side of Israel's fall and temporary setting "til the fulness of the Gentles be come in."

This distinction began to be revealed with the salvation of Paul in Acts 9:6, c.f. Gal. 1:1-12.

In this, it is actually Acts 9 Dispensationalism, but is referred to as Mid-Acts because its distinction was first held to as Acts 13, when Paul was publicly separated unto His commission among the Gentiles.

And we within our school of thought we do not see eye to eye on some things at times, just as with other schools as to their own.

Because each individual is at their own level of understanding.

Danoh said:

It appears he and I are both cessasionist; but we are not, in an important difference.

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Nothing personal here however, because you are not only limits but obscures "Truth" to your understanding and causes you to chase "scholarly rabbits" through the scriptures that are a waste of anyone's time in any attempt at coming a complete solution that will satisfy, absent the pentecostal empowerment/provision.

Problem is you all don't see it. What's more, it is beneath you, at this stage of your paid for theological education to admit you made a wrong move; a perfect example of knowledge puffing up the individual that you live with. Why not consider going back to Peter saying this and believing for it: "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call" Acts 2:39 (KJV)??

Here's an example: If Abraham is the father of faith for all who believe in Christ, why so much attention paid to the nation of Israel?