Faith Without Works Is Dead

Jerry Shugart said:

The passage you quote speaks of Simon's fascination with the miracles whichhe saw so I remain convinced that the following verse describes Simon:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men" (Jn.2:23-24).​

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Simon wasn't there, obviously, because he was a Samaritan. That doesn't mean that he couldn't be on the same class as those, but the context makes me think he believed in the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus, not just the miracles.


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Jerry Shugart said:

Where is your evidence?



Those who refused to believe who He was would die in their sins, as witnessed by His own words here:

"Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:23-24).​

Where is your evidence that he was not saved?

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Read post 124

Squeaky said:

John 2:20-25
20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did.
24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men,
25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.
(NKJ)

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Are you sure that Jesus' disciples believed when Jesus resurrected! If that's true, why did they reject the report of the women who went to the sepulcher and saw that Jesus' body was no longer there? Even after the women said that someone at the tomb had said that Jesus had resurrected, the disciples considered their words as idle tales. The obviousness is that they had never heard that resurrection even existed. Probably they knew from the Tanach that, once dead, no one would ever return from the grave. (Psalm 49:12,20; II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9)

Ben Masada said:

Are you sure that Jesus' disciples believed when Jesus resurrected! If that's true, why did they reject the report of the women who went to the sepulcher and saw that Jesus' body was no longer there? Even after the women said that someone at the tomb had said that Jesus had resurrected, the disciples considered their words as idle tales. The obviousness is that they had never heard that resurrection even existed. Probably they knew from the Tanach that, once dead, no one would ever return from the grave. (Psalm 49:12,20; II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9)

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I said
Back then they didn't believe anything women said.

1 Tim 2:12
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
(NKJ)


Luke 24:10-12
10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them, who told these things to the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them like idle tales, and they did not believe them.
12 But Peter arose and ran to the tomb; and stooping down, he saw the linen cloths lying by themselves; and he departed, marveling to himself at what had happened.
(NKJ)

SimpleMan77 said:

Simon wasn't there, obviously, because he was a Samaritan. That doesn't mean that he couldn't be on the same class as those, but the context makes me think he believed in the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus, not just the miracles.

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One must believe with his heart (Ro.10:10) and I do not think that Simon believed in his heart that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Otherwise, he would have received life:

Lazy afternoon said:

Read post 124

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I changed my mind and I now do not think he was saved.

Jerry Shugart said:

I changed my mind and I now do not think he was saved.

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I said
If a person is alive their saved. Because that is the only time one can work out their own salvation.

Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
(NKJ)

Squeaky said:

I said
If a person is alive their saved. Because that is the only time one can work out their own salvation.

Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
(NKJ)

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Do you not know yet that those words were addressed to those who were already saved (Phil.1:1).?

Why would Paul be telling them to get saved if they were already saved? The Greek word translated "salvation" in the verse which you quoted can also mean "deliverance" and that is the correct translation in that verse.

Faith Without Works Is Dead

Jerry Shugart said:

One must believe with his heart (Ro.10:10) and I do not think that Simon believed in his heart that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Otherwise, he would have received life:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

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If we're going to grab one verse and build a doctrine on it, ignoring all others, why not grab this one.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and EVERY ONE that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Requiring belief necessitates evangelism ("how can they hear without a preacher"). Choosing to believe that love is all that is required only requires an embracing of the 60's philosophy of "it doesn't matter who you love, how you love, or why you love, it only matters that you love". Let's leave Jesus and the Gospel out of this.


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Jerry Shugart said:

Do you not know yet that those words were addressed to those who were already saved (Phil.1:1).?

Why would Paul be telling them to get saved if they were already saved? The Greek word translated "salvation" in the verse which you quoted can also mean "deliverance" and that is the correct translation in that verse.

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I said
Paul knew they were saved, and he also knew that hadn't worked out their salvation yet. Saved and salvation are different. If your alive your saved.

SimpleMan77 said:

If we're going to grab one verse and build a doctrine on it, ignoring all others, why not grab this one.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and EVERY ONE that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Requiring belief necessitates evangelism ("how can they hear without a preacher"). Choosing to believe that love is all that is required only requires an embracing of the 60's philosophy of "it doesn't matter who you love, how you love, or why you love, it only matters that you love". Let's leave Jesus and the Gospel out of this.


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I said
Have you discovered that love is not an emotions yet?

Squeaky said:

I said
Paul knew they were saved, and he also knew that hadn't worked out their salvation yet. Saved and salvation are different. If your alive your saved.

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You fail tounderstand the simple truth that if a person is saved he possesses salvation.

In order to try to win this argument you are willing to throw your reason to the wind!

Jerry Shugart said:

You fail tounderstand the simple truth that if a person is saved he possesses salvation.

In order to try to win this argument you are willing to throw your reason to the wind!

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I said
There is a carnal reasoning that you use. And there is a spiritual reason which I use.Jesus asked them a number of times why do you reason. But as they were so are you, its all you have ever known.
But I use a different reasoning. If the tells me with a verse I will believe it. And as it is written God saved a lot of people and then destroyed those who would not believe. Those who did not believe they now must work out there salvation


Matt 16:8
8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, "O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?
(NKJ)

Luke 5:22
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
(NKJ)

Jude 1:5
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
(NKJ)

As with you that you don't believe you must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
(NKJ)

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] if you are willing to accept one verse that defines what it takes to be saved, and throw away the other, what about embracing this one and throwing away the one about believing on the Lord.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and EVERY ONE that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God

Simple love is all that is required. So much more PC than that believing stuff.

If we're taking one and discarding the other this would be the one to take.


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SimpleMan77 said:

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] if you are willing to accept one verse that defines what it takes to be saved, and throw away the other, what about embracing this one and throwing away the one about believing on the Lord.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and EVERY ONE that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God

Simple love is all that is required.

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The verse which you quote is describing those who are born of God. it does not say that if a person loves then he is saved!

Squeaky said:

And as it is written God saved a lot of people and then destroyed those who would not believe. Those who did not believe they now must work out there salvation

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How can those who are already destroyed going to work out their salvation?

You are incapable of reasoning out of the Scriptures.

Jerry Shugart said:

The verse which you quote is describing those who are born of God. it does not say that if a person loves then he is saved!

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No, it says "everyone that loves is born of God".
It did not say "everyone that is born of God loves".

Using your logic I could say the scriptures about believing describe what saved people do. In other words once they are saved, they believe.

That's not what the scriptures say about loving or believing. You have to accept that both are true, and neither concept is complete without the other.


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SimpleMan77 said:

No, it says "everyone that loves is born of God".
It did not say "everyone that is born of God loves".

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It does not say that a requirement for salvation is to love!

Jerry Shugart said:

It does not say that a requirement for salvation is to love!

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You quoted a verse that said "everyone who believes is saved", and I quoted a verse that says "everyone who loves is saved".

If you can say yours is the whole gospel of salvation, I can say this one is. I would be just as right as you to say that.

However, I only say this to make a point. It takes both to be saved. You must start by believing, and then follow the believing into walking in love.

If you believe, but never love, you will be like the parable of the sower - springing up quickly, but then fading and dying in the process of life.


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Can either one of you define love from the scriptures?