Did God Raise Jesus From The Dead Or Did Jesus Christ Raise Himself?

God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
jamie said:
The Father is not the King, Jesus is.

The Father is never pictured in scripture as sitting on a white horse.
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1 Timothy 6:15
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Revelation 15:3
and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations

1 Timothy 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.



These scriptures prove that Jesus is the King, and the only God.
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
You are denying the scripture where Jesus says plainly that he will raise himself.
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Then show me the verse that says that.

Here??

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

It does not say he did it my friend.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

He gave up his spirit so how could he raise himself?
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
keypurr said:
Then show me the verse that says that.
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John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
God's Truth said:
John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
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BUT IT DOES NOT SAY HE DID IT.

His God raised him.

Some notes I saved years ago:


Really, let's review one of my old post...

"I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This commandment I have received from my Father."

Your argument is that Jesus is saying that he will raise himself, and since in other verses it says that God raised Jesus, then Jesus must be God.

First let me say that just plain common sense destroys this argument. The Bible is very clear that Jesus died. It does not say that part of him died, it says "Jesus died" (all of him). The Platonic argument that only his human side died is just that, Platonic (from Greek philosophy). Even if you believe that, if only part of him died, then he is not truly dead.

So if we say that Jesus raised himself, we then have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is not dead because he is alive enough to raise himself. So our only alternative is to say that the word of God is wrong when it says that Jesus died. So now we are in a position that says that the Bible is incorrect. This is ludicrous, the Bible is not wrong and it is utterly clear that Jesus died.

This also brings up the point that if Jesus is Almighty God, and God is immortal, how can you kill God?

Even from a Trinitarian point of view, this verse does not work. In Trinitarian theology the three separate persons have their distinct roles. The Father is the one who is supposed to have raised Jesus not the Son. No Trinitarian theologian would agree that the Son raised himself the same way they would never agree that the Father was crucified on the cross. The idea that Jesus raised himself is anti-Trinitarian. So if you believe that Jesus raised himself, congratulations, you belong to a denomination that is anti-Trinitarian. Look at what a Catholic Bible the NAB which is about as Trinitarian as it gets, says about this verse:

Footnote on Jn. 10:17-18: "Power to take it up again" – contrasts the role of the Father as the efficient cause of the resurrection in Acts 2:24, 4:10 etc. Romans 1:4, 4:24.

Now let us see what this verse really means.

First the word here translated as "power" is exousia. It occurs just over 100 times, in a majority of these occurrences the RV translates it as "authority," and 10 times as "right." It is not the common word for "power" which is dunamis which means - power, strength, ability.

Both AV and RV translate exousia as "right," for instance, in Rev. 22:14:

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right (exousia) to the tree of life."

This obviously does not mean that obeying God’s commands gives a man the phisical power to raise himself from the dead to immortality, but that he is thereby granted a right to it.

Even more to the point is Jn 1:12:

"But to those that did accept him he gave power (exousia, RV- right) to become children of God."

The AV margins gives "right or privilege." Believers have been given the right or privilege of becoming children of God, they have not been given the power to become the children of God.

These passages above illustrate what Jesus meant when he said he had exousia – the right to take up his life again after having laid it down in death.

As to who actually raised Jesus from the dead, the Scriptures leave not the slightest doubt. Time after time we are told that God raised him from the dead. Consider very particularly the record in Acts 2 for a clear understanding of the relation between Christ and God. Acts 2:22 states,

"Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN accredited by God to by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him."

It then says in verse 24,

"But God raised him up."

Then in verses 25-28 it speaks of the promise that God made to David.

"For David says of him: Because you (GOD) will not abandon my soul (Jesus) to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption."

Verse 30 -32 goes on to say on the same subject:

"But since he was a prophet (David) and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his thrown, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption. GOD RAISED THIS JESUS, of this we are all witnesses."

This next verse is about as clear as it can get:

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

Here are a few more verses which all state that God raised Jesus from the dead. Please look them all up.

Acts 3:15 ; Ephesians 1:19-21 ; Heb. 13:20 ; Acts 13:30, 33, 34, 37 ; Acts 17:31 ; Rom. 6:4 ; 2 Cor. 4:14 ; Gal. 1:1 .

One thing to especially notice of John 10:17-18 is, it says:

"I have the power to take it up again. This commandment I have received from my Father."

It should be noted that the very context of these verses quoted to support the Trinity are directly contrary to the all-powerful, co-equal, none greater or less theory. The Father gave his Son a commandment. This is not equality.

One last thing, let us look at another verse on the same subject to see even more clearly that Jesus did not say or mean that he would resurrect himself. We go to Mark 14:58:

"We heard him say, I will destroy this temple made with hands and within three days I will build another not made with hands."

If we insist that when Jesus says that he will build another temple that it means that he will resurrect himself, then when he says that he will destroy the temple, that has to mean that he will kill himself.

Did Jesus kill himself? No. Someone else did it. Did Jesus raise himself? No. Someone else did it, God. You cannot have it both ways. You must apply the same rule to both sides.

It is very clear who raised Jesus. Let us end this study with two verses.

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Who glorified his servant? The God of Abraham, Jacob, the God of our ancestors. Do you interpret the verse above as if Jesus is the God of our ancestors? Of course not. Jesus is his servant.

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

So who raised Jesus?

1 Jesus.

2 The God of our ancestors.

3 Obama

If you picked any answer but 2 you have not been paying attention.

from Pieric
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
keypurr said:
BUT IT DOES NOT SAY HE DID IT.

His God raised him.

Some notes I saved years ago:


Really, let's review one of my old post...

"I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This commandment I have received from my Father."

Your argument is that Jesus is saying that he will raise himself, and since in other verses it says that God raised Jesus, then Jesus must be God.

First let me say that just plain common sense destroys this argument. The Bible is very clear that Jesus died. It does not say that part of him died, it says "Jesus died" (all of him). The Platonic argument that only his human side died is just that, Platonic (from Greek philosophy). Even if you believe that, if only part of him died, then he is not truly dead.

So if we say that Jesus raised himself, we then have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is not dead because he is alive enough to raise himself. So our only alternative is to say that the word of God is wrong when it says that Jesus died. So now we are in a position that says that the Bible is incorrect. This is ludicrous, the Bible is not wrong and it is utterly clear that Jesus died.

This also brings up the point that if Jesus is Almighty God, and God is immortal, how can you kill God?

Even from a Trinitarian point of view, this verse does not work. In Trinitarian theology the three separate persons have their distinct roles. The Father is the one who is supposed to have raised Jesus not the Son. No Trinitarian theologian would agree that the Son raised himself the same way they would never agree that the Father was crucified on the cross. The idea that Jesus raised himself is anti-Trinitarian. So if you believe that Jesus raised himself, congratulations, you belong to a denomination that is anti-Trinitarian. Look at what a Catholic Bible the NAB which is about as Trinitarian as it gets, says about this verse:

Footnote on Jn. 10:17-18: "Power to take it up again" – contrasts the role of the Father as the efficient cause of the resurrection in Acts 2:24, 4:10 etc. Romans 1:4, 4:24.

Now let us see what this verse really means.

First the word here translated as "power" is exousia. It occurs just over 100 times, in a majority of these occurrences the RV translates it as "authority," and 10 times as "right." It is not the common word for "power" which is dunamis which means - power, strength, ability.

Both AV and RV translate exousia as "right," for instance, in Rev. 22:14:

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right (exousia) to the tree of life."

This obviously does not mean that obeying God’s commands gives a man the phisical power to raise himself from the dead to immortality, but that he is thereby granted a right to it.

Even more to the point is Jn 1:12:

"But to those that did accept him he gave power (exousia, RV- right) to become children of God."

The AV margins gives "right or privilege." Believers have been given the right or privilege of becoming children of God, they have not been given the power to become the children of God.

These passages above illustrate what Jesus meant when he said he had exousia – the right to take up his life again after having laid it down in death.

As to who actually raised Jesus from the dead, the Scriptures leave not the slightest doubt. Time after time we are told that God raised him from the dead. Consider very particularly the record in Acts 2 for a clear understanding of the relation between Christ and God. Acts 2:22 states,

"Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN accredited by God to by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him."

It then says in verse 24,

"But God raised him up."

Then in verses 25-28 it speaks of the promise that God made to David.

"For David says of him: Because you (GOD) will not abandon my soul (Jesus) to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption."

Verse 30 -32 goes on to say on the same subject:

"But since he was a prophet (David) and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his thrown, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption. GOD RAISED THIS JESUS, of this we are all witnesses."

This next verse is about as clear as it can get:

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

Here are a few more verses which all state that God raised Jesus from the dead. Please look them all up.

Acts 3:15 ; Ephesians 1:19-21 ; Heb. 13:20 ; Acts 13:30, 33, 34, 37 ; Acts 17:31 ; Rom. 6:4 ; 2 Cor. 4:14 ; Gal. 1:1 .

One thing to especially notice of John 10:17-18 is, it says:

"I have the power to take it up again. This commandment I have received from my Father."

It should be noted that the very context of these verses quoted to support the Trinity are directly contrary to the all-powerful, co-equal, none greater or less theory. The Father gave his Son a commandment. This is not equality.

One last thing, let us look at another verse on the same subject to see even more clearly that Jesus did not say or mean that he would resurrect himself. We go to Mark 14:58:

"We heard him say, I will destroy this temple made with hands and within three days I will build another not made with hands."

If we insist that when Jesus says that he will build another temple that it means that he will resurrect himself, then when he says that he will destroy the temple, that has to mean that he will kill himself.

Did Jesus kill himself? No. Someone else did it. Did Jesus raise himself? No. Someone else did it, God. You cannot have it both ways. You must apply the same rule to both sides.

It is very clear who raised Jesus. Let us end this study with two verses.

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Who glorified his servant? The God of Abraham, Jacob, the God of our ancestors. Do you interpret the verse above as if Jesus is the God of our ancestors? Of course not. Jesus is his servant.

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

So who raised Jesus?

1 Jesus.

2 The God of our ancestors.

3 Obama

If you picked any answer but 2 you have not been paying attention.

from Pieric
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The scriptures plainly say that God raised Jesus, and the scriptures plainly say that Jesus raised himself.

Tell me, whose commands are they? Are they God's commands, or are they Jesus' commands?

The scriptures say Jesus is the immortal God. When Jesus was dead in the body but alive in the Spirit, he went and preached to the spirits who died a long to ago and were in prison/hell.

1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Revelation 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


We all have spirits living inside of us. God says man can only kill the body not the spirit.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
marhig said:
The Jewish leaders claimed he was God,
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I think you may have misspoken there accidentally. For where did any Jewish leader claim that Jesus was God?

but Jesus corrected them and said because I say I am the son of God"

John 10

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON OF GOD?
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If we read the passage you quoted above more closely, it isn't the Jewish leaders that are claiming that Jesus is God. They want to stone Him to death because He claims to be God ("thou...makest thyself God").

They are accusing Him of claiming to be God. And so they want to kill Him.

And how did He claim to be God? By saying that "I and my Father are one" in verse 30.

He is claiming to be God, according to Jewish thought, so He must be killed.

And in John 19:7 the Jews said that he ought to die because they say, he made himself the son of God, not that he made himself God.
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Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be equal to God which is to claim to be God, in Jewish thought.

More evidence of this can be seen in John 5:17-18: "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Clearly, the Jewish leaders want to see Jesus dead because He is claiming to be equal with God which means He is claiming to be God.

The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
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Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be God. That's why they wanted Him dead.

I have never ever denied that Jesus is the son of God, but that he is God Almighty. Because God Almighty is also the God as father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and God has exalted him, and put him over everything, he has set him at his right hand, and given him authority over everything in heaven and in Earth, this shows us that the father has authority over Christ, because he has set him over everything, and that he is his God, and Paul also said that the head of Christ is God. And it says in the Bible that Christ Jesus is under subjection to the father whom he himself also says is his God.
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If you do not deny that Jesus is the Son of God, why do you deny that He has the same nature as His Father?

What do you think of the verses where Jesus himself said that God is his God?
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We have to remember that Jesus is one person with two natures, a divine nature because He is God's Son...and human nature because He freely chose to condescend Himself and take on flesh.

When Jesus speaks and acts, depending on the context of the situation, He sometimes is speaking from His humanity (that's why He can hunger, thirst, be exhausted, etc....even though God cannot do those things)...and other times from His divinity....(that's why He feels free to do whatever He chooses on the Sabbath and forgives men's sins which only God can do...etc.).

When Jesus says "God is my God" He is speaking from His humanity.

Jesus clearly claimed to be God and the Jews wanted Him dead for it.

Do you think He was lying?

Do you think He was crazy?

What do you think about Jesus' claims to divinity?

We know what the Jewish leaders thought about it.

They killed Him for that.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
I think you may have misspoken there accidentally. For where did any Jewish leader claim that Jesus was God?



If we read the passage you quoted above more closely, it isn't the Jewish leaders that are claiming that Jesus is God. They want to stone Him to death because He claims to be God ("thou...makest thyself God").

They are accusing Him of claiming to be God. And so they want to kill Him.

And how did He claim to be God? By saying that "I and my Father are one" in verse 30.

He is claiming to be God, according to Jewish thought, so He must be killed.



Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be equal to God which is to claim to be God, in Jewish thought.

More evidence of this can be seen in John 5:17-18: "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Clearly, the Jewish leaders want to see Jesus dead because He is claiming to be equal with God which means He is claiming to be God.



Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be God. That's why they wanted Him dead.



If you do not deny that Jesus is the Son of God, why do you deny that He has the same nature as His Father?



We have to remember that Jesus is one person with two natures, a divine nature because He is God's Son...and human nature because He freely chose to condescend Himself and take on flesh.

When Jesus speaks and acts, depending on the context of the situation, He sometimes is speaking from His humanity (that's why He can hunger, thirst, be exhausted, etc....even though God cannot do those things)...and other times from His divinity....(that's why He feels free to do whatever He chooses on the Sabbath and forgives men's sins which only God can do...etc.).

When Jesus says "God is my God" He is speaking from His humanity.

Jesus clearly claimed to be God and the Jews wanted Him dead for it.

Do you think He was lying?

Do you think He was crazy?

What do you think about Jesus' claims to divinity?

We know what the Jewish leaders thought about it.

They killed Him for that.
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:first:
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Stevo1 said:
Yes your right but that doesn't mean he is God.
All of the prophets were spoken to by God and they obeyed that word of God that doesn't make them the Almighty God.
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I agree.

But Jesus was more than just another prophet who obeyed God.

Which other prophets are we told that "the fulness of God dwells in Him?"

And which other prophets were "Emmanuel" God with us?

And which other prophets were given a name above all other names?

And the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not just another prophet. Like in Hebrews Chapter 1 for example.

It says that "God used to talk to people through the prophets...but now He talks to by His Son through whom everything was created."

We can't say that about any other prophets.

The prophets were call out from God were as Jesus had him from the beginning and was full of his spirit.
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According to John 1, Jesus existed prior to creation. The other prophets didn't.

The Son is called God in Hebrews 1:8: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Angels are told to worship Him in Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

Now, God forbids idolatry. Worshipping of something as divine if it isn't.

Yet here, the Bible says angels worship the first begotten of God.

That is God allowing idolatry to occur....UNLESS...God's only Begotten Son is God.

Which He is.

So God is not guilty of commanding idolatry.

Again yes God was in Him he was the perfect mediator not because he is God but because he could be trusted, as God said this is my beloved son in whom i am well pleased, unlike us who are sinners so we need to be more like him to please God.
This can only be done through Christ by the holy spirit so we must be born of the spirit and get rid of the old life and put on the new.
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Jesus claimed to be God. That is the reason why the Jewish leaders wanted Him killed.

Do you think He was lying?

Or do you think He was crazy?

Or what?

Peace.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
oatmeal said:
Here is I Thessalonians 4:16 for your reading pleasure and edification:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

what does the emboldened words say?

a. the dead in Christ shall rise first

b. the dead in Christ shall be raised from the dead by God first
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I choose a.

And notice that it does not say by whose power they are being raised.

Are you assuming they are being raised by their own power? I think the evidence is that they do not.

For one thing, if we can raise ourselves...why don't we? Why does nobody do that?

Why did they have to wait for the Lord Himself to return and shout, and hear the call, and trumpet?

Probably because we can't raise ourselves. It is by His power and in His time.

Since all Christians are sons of God by seed, I Peter 1:23, again here it is for your spiritual pleasure and edification:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
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Peter isn't using the term "seed" literally. He can't be because that refers to a physical, biological, process.

Peter's point is that the "new birth" into the family of God, is a spiritual bond that is more solid than natural, biological family ties.

Jesus says something similar in Matthew 12:50. Spiritual bonds with God are stronger than blood ties.

We are born again by seed, not by adoption.
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No. The point was that our spiritual bonds with God are stronger than physical blood lines.

We know we are adopted into God's family in several ways. First, scripture says so:
Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:5.

And secondly...

Jesus was conceived by divine conception.
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There you have it. Jesus doesn't have a biological father. Everybody else does.

Thirdly, Because of that we know that Jesus is the "only begotten Son of God"

John 1:14,John 1:18, John 3:16, 1 John 4:9.

Can't say that about anybody except for Jesus.

How were we conceived resulting in our being born again according to I Peter?

a. by the acts of our parents in sexual intercourse

b. by the act of God by the word of God

Is God's word the word of men or the word of God?

Is God's word divine or carnal?

Is God's word spiritual words or carnal knowledge?

Were we born again by carnal regeneration or divine regeneration?

Are we sons of God because of God begatting us or by some other means?
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We cannot be begotten in the same sense that Christ was because we have earthly fathers, He doesn't.

That is why He is called the "only begotten Son of God".

We are as much sons of God as Jesus Christ is the son of God
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No, I don't think so.

Tell me what is meant, then, by Jesus being the "only begotten Son" of God?

There are differences between Jesus Christ and us but we are as much sons as he is.
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In some senses, yes, I could agree. In others, no.

In truth, we are joint heirs with Christ. Who is the benefactor that gives the inheritance to both Jesus Christ and us? The Father. He is the one with the heritage to give. To whom does The Father give? to His sons, Jesus Christ and us.
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Ok. But the differences between us and Christ are not minimal. That doesn't mean we are the same kinds of sons (and daughters) of God.

So, you say that God's sons have the same nature as God, since we are God's son, then by your statement all sons of God, including us, are God.
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Nope. We are God's children by adoption (as the verses above testify to) and do not have the same nature as God. We are human beings. He is God. Those are different natures. He allows us to share in His divine life...but we will always only be human beings.

Not so with Jesus. Jesus existed before creation itself. He is God's son by nature. So He has the same attributes of God...which makes Him God.

Is that what you are saying?
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Nope. Nice try but you are reading way too much into Peter's first letter which, if read in context, is really just emphasizing that our spiritual bonds are stronger than biological bonds so stand strong in the face of persecution and suffering.

Or did you leave something out?
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No. I'm good. Your logic doesn't work.

Jesus is called God's only begotten Son for a reason and it is because Jesus is God's only Son by nature.

We are adoptive sons and daughters and, obviously, have a human nature.

Peace.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
keypurr said:
Again, God is the title of a position.

The son of the President is not the President.


Sent from my iPad using TOL
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Did you miss my response to the last time you asked that?

Titles and names do not determine what a son is.

The nature of the Father determines what a son is.

That's why, if you'll let me put it this way:

An elephant father will have a son that is an elephant,(the same nature)
An elk father will have a son that is an elk,(the same nature)
A human father will have a son that is a human being, (the same nature)

And God the Father will have a Son that is...God. The same nature.

The question isn't about names and titles...but about essences and natures.

What matters is what the father is. That is what the son is.

The attributes of the father are the attributes of the sons.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
marhig said:
Hi Bard, Jesus had a human nature too, he had a will, that he denied to do Gods will, it says in the Bible that he was tempted in all points as we are. He was human too like we are he couldn't be tempted if he didn't have a human nature. Also, he would have had an advantage over us, he couldn't come here and tell is to turn from sin, deny ourselves, bare our cross and follow him if he couldn't sin, because he wouldn't have had a human nature like us, so how can he come here, unable to sin, and tell us to follow him, he had to be like us to do this. and he couldn't have overcome Satan and expect us to do the same if he didn't have to go through what we do. And this is why he is our perfect example, because he could sin, but he didn't, not once, Satan did everything he could to try to get him to, but he didn't and in doing so he overcame his evil with good, it says in the Bible that he began to do and teach, he didn't just teach the gospel, he lived by it himself too, and his way is the way to follow.

He is the way, the truth and the life. And he said have no fear, for I have overcome the world. And he will help those who truly repent and turn from this world of sin, willing to become living sacrifices, to lay down their lives and do the will of God, to do the same.

And to do this, is to be willing to die the death, willing to let our old life go, and do the will of God and truly follow Jesus. And when God is ready, he will bless us with his Spirit and teach and guide us everyday in our hearts and minds, and once we are born of God, then the life of Christ will be made manifest in our hearts by the spirit and we too will then bare witness to the truth.

Having a changed heart and a nature more like Christ, full of love, compassion and forgiveness toward others, and bring the love and the word of God to others with the hope that they will want to hear and believe and let Christ in us do his work, and reconcile as many to God as possible through us.

We are to love our God with with all our hearts and minds, soul and strength, and our neighbours as ourselves, and lay down our lives for others and do his will, and if we truly love him, we will. And to do this is to truly follow Jesus Christ.
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Great post, marhig! :thumb:

I love it and agree completely!!

God bless.
 
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Bard_the_Bowman

New member
jamie said:
Paul agrees that we become something else.
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I don't think so. Does he say what?

Our human nature is hostile to God's instructions.
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Now it is, yes. After the Fall. But it wasn't originally like that. Adam and Eve were not like that until after they sinned.

If they would not have sinned, they could have continued to live in perfect harmony with God and creation.

Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the gospel."

Flesh and blood humans cannot enter God's kingdom. We must be born of the Spirit.
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I disagree. Human beings are a composite of physical and spiritual. We will always only ever be human beings.

But perfected human beings will enter God's kingdom.

When we become born of the Spirit we still have physical bodies. We don't need to lose our bodies.

Peace.
 
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Bard_the_Bowman

New member
keypurr said:
Your point is moot.

The son of a King in not the King.

A clone is not the original.

You fail on all counts.

Sent from my A622GL using TOL mobile app
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Get past the titles and names keypurr.

I have.

A son has the same essence as his father.

The type of being that a Father is, is the type of being that his son is.

The type of being that a human father is, is the type of being that the human son is.

The type of being that God is, is the type of being that God's Son is.

See? It isn't about names and titles.

My point still remains valid.

Father's and son's aren't clones. Where did that come from?
 
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Bard_the_Bowman

New member
oatmeal said:
Well, the context gives us some incredible information.

John 14:10 Jesus Christ teaches us that Jesus Christ does not do the works but it is the Father who dwells in him is He who does the works

Since it is the Father that does the works, then the ALL power that Jesus says he has been given resides with the Father not with the Son.

Have fun with that one.
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No need to get snarky, man, it is just a conversation.

And it is answered quite well by the kenosis that can be read about in Philippians 2.
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
I think you may have misspoken there accidentally. For where did any Jewish leader claim that Jesus was God?



If we read the passage you quoted above more closely, it isn't the Jewish leaders that are claiming that Jesus is God. They want to stone Him to death because He claims to be God ("thou...makest thyself God").

They are accusing Him of claiming to be God. And so they want to kill Him.

And how did He claim to be God? By saying that "I and my Father are one" in verse 30.

He is claiming to be God, according to Jewish thought, so He must be killed.



Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be equal to God which is to claim to be God, in Jewish thought.

More evidence of this can be seen in John 5:17-18: "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Clearly, the Jewish leaders want to see Jesus dead because He is claiming to be equal with God which means He is claiming to be God.



Claiming to be the Son of God is to claim to be God. That's why they wanted Him dead.



If you do not deny that Jesus is the Son of God, why do you deny that He has the same nature as His Father?



We have to remember that Jesus is one person with two natures, a divine nature because He is God's Son...and human nature because He freely chose to condescend Himself and take on flesh.

When Jesus speaks and acts, depending on the context of the situation, He sometimes is speaking from His humanity (that's why He can hunger, thirst, be exhausted, etc....even though God cannot do those things)...and other times from His divinity....(that's why He feels free to do whatever He chooses on the Sabbath and forgives men's sins which only God can do...etc.).

When Jesus says "God is my God" He is speaking from His humanity.

Jesus clearly claimed to be God and the Jews wanted Him dead for it.

Do you think He was lying?

Do you think He was crazy?

What do you think about Jesus' claims to divinity?

We know what the Jewish leaders thought about it.

They killed Him for that.
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Yes Bard, I did say that wrong at the beginning of my post, I'm sorry. I meant to say the Jewish leaders tried to say he said he was God, but he didn't he said he was the Son of God. I'll read the rest of your post now. Thanks for putting me right. :)
 
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