Britain - Land of the Fear and the Home Of The Sheeple?

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
[h=1]


Where has the British love of liberty gone?[/h]
Protests against lockdown are raging in other nations. In the UK, people want even tougher restrictions
What happened to the British people’s bulldog spirit, our instinctive libertarianism? Judging from how we’ve reacted to the lockdown, we’ve become a nation of authoritarians. Far from rebelling against our liberties being removed, most people are demanding the powers that be impose even more draconian measures.
According to an opinion poll published earlier this week, only six per cent of people think the current restrictions are “too severe”, while 44 per cent think they're "not severe enough".

rest of article behind Telegraph's paywall: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/18/has-british-love-liberty-gone/

 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Elsewhere in the world:



CORONA UNREST America’s coronavirus lockdown protests spark demonstrations around the world demanding end to quarantines
  • 21 Apr 2020, 11:34
  • Updated: 21 Apr 2020, 12:37


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PROTESTS against the coronavirus lockdown in the US have sparked fierce worldwide demonstrations in a bid to end quarantines.
Unrest broke out in countries across the world demanding an end to the stay-at-home measures following the ongoing protests in the US as gun-wielding activists converged on the state capital of Pennsylvania.
⚠️ Read our coronavirus live blog for the latest news & updates

Hundreds of people take part in a protest against the self-isolation order in Svobody Square, Russia, by the Palace of Justice
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Hundreds of people take part in a protest against the self-isolation order in Svobody Square, Russia, by the Palace of JusticeCredit: Getty Images - Getty
Police in Delhi, India, used wooden sticks to disperse the crowds, who chanted: 'Feed us or send us home'
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Police in Delhi, India, used wooden sticks to disperse the crowds, who chanted: 'Feed us or send us home'Credit: Getty Images - Getty
Supporters of Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro protested against the recommendations for social isolation
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Supporters of Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro protested against the recommendations for social isolationCredit: Reuters Lockdown rules, which experts say are essential to slow the spread of the virus, have ground the economy across all continents to a virtual standstill.
From Trump supporters in the US defying strict quarantine rules, to labourers struggling in some of the poorest parts of India begging to be allowed to work, the lockdown measures have resulted in angry protests erupting in a number of countries across the world.
The US is quickly becoming the new epicentre of the Covid-19 pandemic, with 792,938 cases and 42,518 deaths reported.
Across America, groups of demonstrators — some armed with high-powered assault rifles — have been seen taking to the streets in protest of lockdown orders aimed at limiting the spread of the killer virus.


It comes as unemployment numbers across the nation reached an unprecedented 22 million — wiping out the gains made in the decade since the 2008 financial crisis.
And the country's protests have set off a chain reaction across the globe.
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In India, where there are 18,658 confirmed coronavirus cases and 592 deaths, clashes erupted in Delhi as thousands of workers arrived expecting trains to take them to their homes.
Police used wooden sticks to disperse the crowds, who chanted: "Feed us or send us home."


A poll of 11,000 migrant workers showed 96 per cent had received no Government food aid since the lockdown began.
Meanwhile, in France, protests erupted over the alleged poor treatment of minorities by the police.
In the northern Paris suburb of Villeneuve-la-Garenne, youngsters clashed with officers after a 28-year-old man was injured by an unmarked police car.
Officers turned to their batons and used tear gas to disperse crowds who set bins on fire and let off fireworks.
So far, France has 155,383 reported virus cases and 20,265 deaths.
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Similarly, at least a thousand people rallied against lockdown restrictions in Vladikavkaz, Russia, yesterday afternoon.
Hundreds of local residents packed the city’s main square, demanding to speak to the governor as the country's death toll rose to 456.
Their concerns about the economic fallout of the lockdown are mixed with an inherent distrust in local authorities who are widely perceived as corrupt.
Elsewhere in Brazil, which has reported 40,814 coronavirus cases and 2,588 deaths so far, saw its president, Jair Bolsonaro, refuse to enact nationwide lockdown measures.
Polls show a majority of Brazilians disagree with the president and support stay-at-home measures.
On Sunday, he joined a group of 600 protesters who gathered in front of Army headquarters in Brasilia to protest against stay-at-home measures enacted by individual state governors and called for a return to military rule.

Tensions also reached boiling point in South Africa where riots and looting have taken place in Cape Town, as a result of chronic food shortages.
With 58 confirmed deaths in the country, police were forced to use rubber bullets and tear gas to disperse protesters, as the sale of all non-essential items, including alcohol and cigarettes, has been banned.
It comes after the World Health Organization warned that Africa could become the next epicentre of the coronavirus outbreak.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/114431...rotests-world/


 

chair

Well-known member
I guess the British public has a better understanding of the risks involved in this epidemic than the public does in other countries. Or a greater feeling of responsibility to their fellow citizens.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
I guess the British public has a better understanding of the risks involved in this epidemic than the public does in other countries. Or a greater feeling of responsibility to their fellow citizens.


Or perhaps the British public has been conditioned by big brother to be obedient sheep:

Social distancing is sensible, our subservience to groupthink is not.

Since when have we become too afraid to question authority?

The complacent attitude of young and healthy Brits is surprising.



“Stay at home. Protect the NHS. Save Lives. Do your part. Wash your hands.” These sacred chants have become commandments to live by in the recent British lifestyle, and for good reason.

Yes, we know, “staying at home” is the sensible thing to do. To all those people preaching this endlessly, however, and asking for even tougher lockdown restrictions, I want to ask: what novel contribution are you making to the topic, other than rambling on the same viewpoint which already has the unequivocal endorsement of the authorities, the government and the media?

It’s as if sheeple mentality has a tendency to override people’s inherent critical thinking nature — which we only find dissipating in these progressive times, with everyone becoming subservient to authoritarians — which may come in subtle forms such as groupthink, thy neighbours and the mass media, not your stereotypical armed militia policing the streets.
But wait, it’s to save lives…

Did any of you, even for a second, take a step back and ask yourselves, what are the tradeoffs associated with the lockdowns? Or, if there’s evidence that lockdown will actually work and save lives, given the possibility of reinfections? Or, that for every person who got the infection, the very vast majority recovered and carried on just fine?

Official statistics paint far from a complete picture as they fail to account for all those who got the infection and recovered without needing any hospitalisation or external care (myself included). These cases were not and are not being reported. If all cases could be accounted for, the denominator indicating the total infections would be, and in fact is, much much larger, bringing the actual mortality rate to a very tiny percentage. Mikko Paunio, a Finnish Government scientific adviser estimates this mortality rate at a low 0.13% — about the same as the flu.

And because developing countries (India for one) must unquestionably follow the Western world’s lead, nevermind the flaws, they have imposed even tougher, total lockdowns with a lot of misinformation spreading among people — especially the healthy young, who are overreacting to the pandemic, leaving those needing care helpless.

When dealing with unknown unknowns like COVID-19 which has an astronomically high infection rate, and its potential to disrupt healthcare systems, it is only a natural and sensible response for us to take the safer-than-sorry approach, which is what social distancing entails. Sacrificing a bit of personal freedom — cutting down on gym for a few weeks, not eating out, being unemployed and not socialising with friends sounds like a small tradeoff for the potential benefits the lockdown may bring. The question remains, for how long?

Toby Young, creator of Lockdown Sceptics, in The Telegraph questioned, “Where has the British love of liberty gone?” (cached). He stated, whereas in nations like Germany and the U.S., the majority — despite obeying the lockdown, want it to be over soon, the British public is in love with the idea of imposing even tougher restrictions and handing authorities more power, which the same authorities have abused.

A lot of healthy and young people have been affected financially and emotionally by the lockdown, yet I cannot find a single record of any protest against it in the UK. It’s as if we have surrendered to fate.

Dan Hodges, while walking on eggshells in his Daily Mail piece ultimately shifts people’s attention to the “vital voice missing from the discussions. The voice that sets aside the clinical and economic imperatives for a moment, and calmly points out a basic fact. We are surviving. And existing. But we are no longer living.” He prompts people to have a serious discussion about how long we can go on like this.

Bottomline is, given the possibility of reinfections, nobody knows if lockdown is working or will work. Without a vaccine or antiviral drugs, lockdowns may continue indefinitely without promising concrete results.What we do know for sure is: life has been grossly absent. We do know how badly these measures have impacted the economy and livelihoods — the forgotten vulnerable folks without their jobs. We can feel the devastating effects this is having on our mental and physical health — from lack of mobility and social life. We know the mortality rate from COVID-19 is infinitesimal, no worse than the flu. We know the vast majority that developed mild symptoms and recovered just fine — without needing any external help.

At some point, you need to cut the popular ‘noise’ and realistically evaluate the tradeoffs any policy has. The old and vulnerable need saving and the healthcare resources need to be managed — but that shouldn’t mean the vast majority; young and healthy who are the backbone of economy and the nation should be made vulnerable and suffer indefinitely from a lockdown which is likely to be extended even further.

While social distancing is a sensible choice, people’s love to be corralled like cattle without questioning authority — which hasn’t promised any tangible results from a lockdown yet, is beyond my comprehension.
https://medium.com/@_ax/social-dista...t-8da9ba52a4cc

 

chair

Well-known member
Or perhaps the British public has been conditioned by big brother to be obedient sheep:

Or maybe they opened there eyes, looked at Italy, saw Spain, and saw where there own country was headed, and made a wise decision. Not everybody is blinded by conspiracy theories.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Or maybe they opened there eyes, looked at Italy, saw Spain, and saw where there own country was headed, and made a wise decision.

Wise or overly cautious? It's a valid question, doesn't require a belief in conspiracies to ask.

And how foolish to assume that one's leaders are acting wisely or in the best interests of any one particular segment of society - inevitably some will suffer and some will prosper, and inevitably, venal politicians will act in their own best interests.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Wise. Why is this so hard for you to see?

do you recognize that there could be ANY governmentally applied restrictions on civil liberties that would be overly cautious?

do you recognize that there exists a grey zone between "wise" and "overly cautious"?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Wise. Why is this so hard for you to see?

Do you recognize that there exists a gradient?

not sufficiently cautious ---> wise ---> overly cautious


How do you know when you have it just right? When ALL deaths stop?
 

chair

Well-known member
do you recognize that there could be ANY governmentally applied restrictions on civil liberties that would be overly cautious?

do you recognize that there exists a grey zone between "wise" and "overly cautious"?

Yes, governments can go to extremes. Yes, there is a grey area. And no- this virus situation is not a grey zone.

Let's try this:

In some states in the US, motorcyclists are not required by law to wear helmets. If they want to risk their lives- it's their business, not the government's. One can make a reasonable case for that (assuming that they pay for health costs involved with their behavior).
What about drunk driving? Why shouldn't I be allowed to drive while drunk?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Yes, governments can go to extremes. Yes, there is a grey area.

:thumb:

And no- this virus situation is not a grey zone.

the response to it, which will inevitably be based on uncertainties, will be a de facto gray zone

Let's try this:

In some states in the US, motorcyclists are not required by law to wear helmets. If they want to risk their lives- it's their business, not the government's. One can make a reasonable case for that (assuming that they pay for health costs involved with their behavior).

my nanny state doesn't allow me to ride without a helmet - got a ticket way back when for going around the block without a helmet when I was test riding it after some carb tuning and I wanted to hear it better than my full face helmet allowed. Bought a used brain bucket after that


What about drunk driving? Why shouldn't I be allowed to drive while drunk?

the argument is that, unlike the case with motorcycles, you are apt to cause harm to others

but what constitutes "drunk"? When I worked in a lab doing forensic BAC levels on a GC, the legal limit in my state was 100 mg/dl - for me, that was three beers in an hour. For my wife, one.

Today I believe it's 70. And when I had a CDL, it was half of that, regardless of whether I was driving a truck or my car or a boat.


35 mg/dl (overly cautious) ---> just right ---> 200 mg/dl (insufficiently cautious)

where do you peg that "just right"?


btw, when states started enforcing DWI laws and helmet laws came about, an interesting unintended consequence arose - a great reduction in the availability of transplantable organs - all those healthy young males weren't killing themselves through stupidity at rates sufficient to meet demand for organs
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
Yes, governments can go to extremes. Yes, there is a grey area. And no- this virus situation is not a grey zone.

Let's try this:

In some states in the US, motorcyclists are not required by law to wear helmets. If they want to risk their lives- it's their business, not the government's. One can make a reasonable case for that (assuming that they pay for health costs involved with their behavior).
What about drunk driving? Why shouldn't I be allowed to drive while drunk?

Your entire argument is fallacious.

You compare apples and oranges and then point to a conclusion that cannot be reached through your examples. How is drunk driving' which has a very high probability of endangering people other than the driver the logical equivalent of a motor cycle rider not wearing a helmet which has an extremely low probability of injuring anyone else. Does it even begin to occur to you that your entire reasoning process is fallacious? Or is your post an intentional use of fallacy?

How about the economic damage done to people through the lock down policies and the suspension of work and business which destroys entire economies around the world? Who is going to pay for that? Are you? Is the political left going to pay for it? How is it possible to repay for the entire destruction of the vast majority of people's lives, businesses, loss of homes, loss of liberty, etc.... ? There is going to be so much wealth destroyed that it will take many years to again reach the the level of wealth where this all started. Who is going to pay for forcing hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people into dangerous levels of poverty? Do you really think money created by a keystroke on a computer is the equivalent of goods produced through labor and the production of those goods? Can people really exist on that fantasy money when nothing is being produced to actually live on?
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
the response to it, which will inevitably be based on uncertainties, will be a de facto gray zone

Given the choice between erring on the side of caution or erring on the side of throwing caution to the wind, you would choose the latter, but only from the safety and comfort of your chosen vantage point. See how willing you are to play Russian roulette with other people's lives.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
chair


an excerpt from the longer piece on page 1:

At some point, you need to cut the popular ‘noise’ and realistically evaluate the tradeoffs any policy has. The old and vulnerable need saving and the healthcare resources need to be managed — but that shouldn’t mean the vast majority; young and healthy who are the backbone of economy and the nation should be made vulnerable and suffer indefinitely from a lockdown which is likely to be extended even further.

While social distancing is a sensible choice, people’s love to be corralled like cattle without questioning authority — which hasn’t promised any tangible results from a lockdown yet, is beyond my comprehension.
https://medium.com/@_ax/social-dista...t-8da9ba52a4cc

 
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