Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Go back to the meditation hall and pray everyday for a year and then we'll meet again til you clear up your nasty spirit
Unfortunately, you have missed the mark and your righteousness falls short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23
I've not said anything nasty.
Typical.
Discussions with Calvinists are a 100% waste of time.
I think that you are the one that has embraced the doctrine of a heretic.
My theology is based upon the Gospel of Jesus and justification by faith.
God's Truth
New member
Yours is from the doctrine of dead faith...believe but do nothing.
God's Truth
New member
No Robert, you cannot mix up, twist, and nullify scriptures.
The scriptures say plainly that Jesus saves those who obey him.
Paul didn't go against Jesus and change that.
Have you sold all that you have and given it to the poor yet? If you haven't then then you have missed the mark and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus doesn't tell everyone to do that.
You speak lies about Jesus.
Jesus didn't promote world wide homelessness and make the poor people the biggest sinners of all for having a home. Too pathetic to laugh about.
Nanja
Well-known member
The faith / believing a person does with his own mind is a work [ergon] of the flesh that cannot please God Rom. 8:8.
Those whom God Saved by His Grace are given Faith in New Birth Gal. 5:22.
2 Tim. 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
You have apparently gotten into some bad pollen.
Everyone is born with the ability to have faith. Did you not have faith in your parents as a child?
This faith becomes active when one hears and believes the Gospel, "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" which is the Gospel, Romans 10:17.
You apparently don't believe the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5;18, 19.
You will not be saved without faith in Christ and his Gospel.
Nanja
Well-known member
Before a person is Given New Birth, all the works they do of believing, hearing, etc. are all works of the flesh which cannot please God Rom. 8:8.
The only Faith that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth Gal. 5:22.
Salvation is all the Work of God's Grace, not by the works a person does Eph. 2:8-9!
You are as blind as a bat.
Faith is not a work and even if it was, it is not a work that saves. Jesus saves, not faith. faith is what makes the Gospel ours.
You have never been born again, if you had you would not be following the doctrine of a heretic.
We are born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.
Nanja
Well-known member
Yes it is!
Faith is a Fruit of the Spirit of God Gal. 5:22 given in New Birth to every one of God's Elect Saints.
But the Faith exercised in the mind of a carnal man is a work (Gr. ergon) of the flesh which cannot please God Rom 8:7-8.
ergon, G2041:
II. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2041&t=KJV&ss=1
So, first a person must be Born of the Spirit, then the good work of Believing with his New Mind / Heart Ezek. 36:26 pleases God Rom. 8:9.
Does this please God?
Romans 10:9-13 New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
flintstoned
New member
So you don't think unbelievers are damned to hell? Are you a universalist?
NON-CALVINIST THEOLOGY: WHY JESUS WAS A FAILURE AT HIS MISSION TO SAVE THE WORLD.
Non-Calvinists teach that Jesus came to save the world. Their first mistake is assuming "world" means "every individual on the planet" -- with this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that Jesus takes away the sins of every individual on the planet (based on John 1:29). With this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that the Father sent Jesus to save every individual on the planet (based on John 3:17). With this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that Jesus came to save every individual sinner on the planet (based on 1 Timothy 1:15). With this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of every individual on the planet (based on 1 John 2:2). With this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that God sent Jesus to be the savior of every individual on the planet (based on 1 John 4:14).
Now, please explain how this is not failure when the One who was sent by the Father to save every individual on the planet ends up only saving only a portion of sinners on the planet? The goal was ALL, but result is FEW. That is called a failed attempt at saving every individual on the planet. You cannot deny that the Non-Calvinist belief is that God wants every individual on the planet to be saved. But rather than properly understand what Jesus did on the cross and properly understand who He did it for, they continue to say Jesus died for every individual on the planet. This not only makes Jesus a failure at His mission to save everyone on the planet, it makes God unjust by allowing Jesus to pay for the sins of people who go to hell -- because then God ignores or rejects Jesus' work on the cross -- and seeks to re-punish the sinner in hell for the sins that Jesus already accounted for on the cross! Now you say, man is the failure?? Blame shifting will not help you. It is clear that God's great plan to save the entire world rested on JESUS... and yet the entire world is not saved according to Non-Calvinist theology. The only way for Non-Calvinist theology to be true and God honoring is if EVERYONE on the planet becomes saved. Otherwise, God's plan to save the world is failure. Realizing this results in failure toward God, the Non-Calvinist shifts the blame to Man, saying man failed to believe in Jesus -- as if the work of Christ on the cross depends on Man to make the atonement a factual payment for sin. So you believe God is all knowing -- and thus God knowingly made Jesus suffer for sins that God knew would never benefit certain sinners. Again, God punishing Jesus and then double dipping to punish sinners in hell, which is unjust. This is called double jeopardy -- two payments for the same sins. This makes God not only unjust, but also an unholy God. The faith or lack of faith of man does not determine whether the Father approves what Jesus did on behalf of -- as Non-Calvinists say - every individual on the planet. Jesus died 2,000 years ago -- before anyone today was born, and Non-Calvinists believe He died for everyone living on the planet today -- thus, the sins of everyone living today has ALREADY been atoned for. That work of Jesus cannot be undone! It was a historical and actual payment for sins. Jesus literally took the wrath of God upon Himself for those He died for. All the wrath for all the people living on the planet today (Non-Calvinists say) -- yet, none of that really matters because God ignores what Jesus did 2,000 years ago for those who are in hell. The Father is like the unbeliever because -- in the logical conclusion of Non-Calvinist theology -- the Father agrees with those in hell, that Jesus’ work counts for nothing. Like the sinners in hell, even the Father does not believe in Jesus' work on the cross -- since it did nothing to actually save anyone in hell. This is the logical end to Non-Calvinist theology. It makes Jesus a failure and God unjust.
Please reconsider who Jesus died for, who's sins He took away, who Jesus is the propitiation for -- it is not every individual on the planet -- it is only the elect -- and none of them shall perish! Why, because Jesus is their Savior -- a real Savior -- one that actually saves everyone He died for.
This sums up why I do not hold to the Non-Calvinist belief that Jesus died for every individual on the planet --- and why you shouldn’t either. Non-Calvinist theology is a sweet thought on the surface but when examined it is rotten to the core.
Non-Calvinists teach that Jesus came to save the world. Their first mistake is assuming "world" means "every individual on the planet" -- with this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that Jesus takes away the sins of every individual on the planet (based on John 1:29). With this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that the Father sent Jesus to save every individual on the planet (based on John 3:17). With this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that Jesus came to save every individual sinner on the planet (based on 1 Timothy 1:15). With this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of every individual on the planet (based on 1 John 2:2). With this faulty understanding of "world" they teach that God sent Jesus to be the savior of every individual on the planet (based on 1 John 4:14).
Now, please explain how this is not failure when the One who was sent by the Father to save every individual on the planet ends up only saving only a portion of sinners on the planet? The goal was ALL, but result is FEW. That is called a failed attempt at saving every individual on the planet. You cannot deny that the Non-Calvinist belief is that God wants every individual on the planet to be saved. But rather than properly understand what Jesus did on the cross and properly understand who He did it for, they continue to say Jesus died for every individual on the planet. This not only makes Jesus a failure at His mission to save everyone on the planet, it makes God unjust by allowing Jesus to pay for the sins of people who go to hell -- because then God ignores or rejects Jesus' work on the cross -- and seeks to re-punish the sinner in hell for the sins that Jesus already accounted for on the cross! Now you say, man is the failure?? Blame shifting will not help you. It is clear that God's great plan to save the entire world rested on JESUS... and yet the entire world is not saved according to Non-Calvinist theology. The only way for Non-Calvinist theology to be true and God honoring is if EVERYONE on the planet becomes saved. Otherwise, God's plan to save the world is failure. Realizing this results in failure toward God, the Non-Calvinist shifts the blame to Man, saying man failed to believe in Jesus -- as if the work of Christ on the cross depends on Man to make the atonement a factual payment for sin. So you believe God is all knowing -- and thus God knowingly made Jesus suffer for sins that God knew would never benefit certain sinners. Again, God punishing Jesus and then double dipping to punish sinners in hell, which is unjust. This is called double jeopardy -- two payments for the same sins. This makes God not only unjust, but also an unholy God. The faith or lack of faith of man does not determine whether the Father approves what Jesus did on behalf of -- as Non-Calvinists say - every individual on the planet. Jesus died 2,000 years ago -- before anyone today was born, and Non-Calvinists believe He died for everyone living on the planet today -- thus, the sins of everyone living today has ALREADY been atoned for. That work of Jesus cannot be undone! It was a historical and actual payment for sins. Jesus literally took the wrath of God upon Himself for those He died for. All the wrath for all the people living on the planet today (Non-Calvinists say) -- yet, none of that really matters because God ignores what Jesus did 2,000 years ago for those who are in hell. The Father is like the unbeliever because -- in the logical conclusion of Non-Calvinist theology -- the Father agrees with those in hell, that Jesus’ work counts for nothing. Like the sinners in hell, even the Father does not believe in Jesus' work on the cross -- since it did nothing to actually save anyone in hell. This is the logical end to Non-Calvinist theology. It makes Jesus a failure and God unjust.
Please reconsider who Jesus died for, who's sins He took away, who Jesus is the propitiation for -- it is not every individual on the planet -- it is only the elect -- and none of them shall perish! Why, because Jesus is their Savior -- a real Savior -- one that actually saves everyone He died for.
This sums up why I do not hold to the Non-Calvinist belief that Jesus died for every individual on the planet --- and why you shouldn’t either. Non-Calvinist theology is a sweet thought on the surface but when examined it is rotten to the core.
All who are not trusting in Christ and in Christ alone, will perish.
God's Truth
New member
Then you better become a Calvinist. lol