Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

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"Ought" Does Not Imply "Can"

"Ought" Does Not Imply "Can"

Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Within the context of Isaiah 7:13-25, it is not probable that this promise of the overturn of the kingdoms of Syria and Samaria, which immediately followed, would be deferred for five hundred years, that is, until the coming of Christ (see Isaiah 7:15); and, indeed, it would have been altogether absurd. Hence, the prophecy in question in Isaiah 7:16 teaches,

Before the children, who shall be born hereafter, can distinguish between good and evil, the land which thou hatest shall be forsaken,

This has nothing to do with, nor teaches, a claim that unbelievers are morally able to not sin for this would import more intent into the passage that it actually contextually bears.

Further, that the unbeliever knows what he ought to do is not in dispute. Ought does not imply can. As Romans 1 teaches, the unbeliever knows what he ought to do, but he has suppressed that knowledge in unrighteousness.

Given Scripture's description of the state of fallen man in Adam....

...the unbeliever is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2), must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5), cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2-1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2-3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14), and is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:15-20),

...the unbeliever's moral inability to not sin is undeniable, leaving no room to smuggle in some minute seed of righteousness that enables them to not sin.

If, when Adam sinned, nothing happened to human nature other than some woundedness that still permits ability to not sin, it becomes theologically inexplicable why Scripture constantly portrays all of humankind as evil and thus deserving punishment. In fact, if this were true, Paul's discussion of the first and last Adam is completely wrong.

Yet, in Romans 5 Paul is not speaking about man's actual sin after Adam. Paul is not saying we become sinners by sinning. Rather, we sin because we are sinners from birth. For if every person contracts his own guilt by becoming a sinner by sinning, then one wonders why Paul in Romans 5 bothers to form a comparison between Adam and Christ. After all, if the claim is that we contract our own guilt by sinning, then the same logic must lead one to claim that we contract our own righteousness by being righteous! Paul is certainly not teaching such a terrible Pelagian scheme.

Rather, in Romans 5 the symmetry of Paul's comparison between fallen Adam's innate corruption and Our Lord's innate righteousness, and the respective imputations of our sin upon Christ and Christ's righteousness upon man, is inescapable. Given what Paul has actually written, comparing Adam and Our Lord, it follows that our innate and hereditary depravity and our Lord's innate and hereditary righteousness, imputed to us, is what is being referred to in Romans 5.

AMR
 

musterion

Well-known member
"Good day, sir."

- Meshak's last words after her works are judged, as she attempts to ignore Christ and walk away from the Great White Throne.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
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I love Jesus because He first loved me. That is Calvinism. - Spurgeon

Spurgeon may have mouthed these words but he doesn't believe them and you're quoting the Apostle John, not some Calvinist who believes that his god arbitrarily chooses who to send to Hell and who to "save" for no reason and that those so chosen to do so, "love" this arbitrary control freak, not because they choose to to, as real love would require, but because he affords no alternative.

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)​

And Spurgeon believes every syllable of what Calvin said in those quotes! Thus his words, as you've quoted him, are hollow facsimiles and convey nothing of the truths that they appear to state. Love is utterly meaningless in the Calvinist system. Their doctrine has nothing at all to do with biblical teaching nor the loving, just and mercifully kind God it describes. It is a lie from top to bottom.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

TulipBee

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Spurgeon may have mouthed these words but he doesn't believe them and you're quoting the Apostle John, not some Calvinist who believes that his god arbitrarily chooses who to send to Hell and who to "save" for no reason and that those so chosen to do so, "love" this arbitrary control freak, not because they choose to to, as real love would require, but because he affords no alternative.

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)​

And Spurgeon believes every syllable of what Calvin said in those quotes! Thus his words, as you've quoted him, are hollow facsimiles and convey nothing of the truths that they appear to state. Love is utterly meaningless in the Calvinist system. Their doctrine has nothing at all to do with biblical teaching nor the loving, just and mercifully kind God it describes. It is a lie from top to bottom.

Resting in Him,
Clete
I love Jesus because He first loved me. That is biblical
 

TulipBee

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God's Truth

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I love Jesus because He first loved me. That is Calvinism. - Spurgeon

Jesus first loved you. Jesus first loved you? Jesus first loved you?!

Jesus loves us is about the creation in general.

Jesus does NOT personally love those who do not first love Him.

Jesus loves those who love God, and God loves those who love Jesus, they are one and the same.

You are badly mistaken not knowing enough, not knowing the scriptures and God.
 

God's Truth

New member
List of anti-Calvinists on here who have ever actually studied Calvin and Reformed theology:

:chuckle:

You thought finding God was about finding one of the oldest denominations...finding the corrected oldest denomination...you mix Catholic and Calvinism...God is not in a denomination or the teachings of men...God is in the words of Jesus Christ...obey him and you will find him, just like he says.
 

Crucible

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You thought finding God was about finding one of the oldest denominations...finding the corrected oldest denomination...you mix Catholic and Calvinism...God is not in a denomination or the teachings of men...God is in the words of Jesus Christ...obey him and you will find him, just like he says.

The Reformation was, by definition, a reform on the Catholic Church- it was not a complete jump off of Christianity such as what you all exhibit and perpetuate.

Christianity, like any proper religion, is authenticated by it's history. The Bible didn't simply fall out of the sky one bright afternoon, and neither did it's understanding.
 

God's Truth

New member
The Reformation was, by definition, a reform on the Catholic Church- it was not a complete jump off of Christianity such as what you all exhibit and perpetuate.

Christianity, like any proper religion, is authenticated by it's history. The Bible didn't simply fall out of the sky one bright afternoon, and neither did it's understanding.

What are you talking about? What does it have to do with what I said? Go back and read what I said and then reply accordingly.
 

God's Truth

New member
:plain:







:chuckle:

What is so funny?

There are many denominations, and that is NOT how you get saved.

You do not get saved for searching out the best denomination according to what you think is the best.

You do not get saved by a priest or a pastor.

Only Jesus saves, and he saves those who search for his teachings and do what he says.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
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What is so funny?

There are many denominations, and that is NOT how you get saved.

You do not get saved for searching out the best denomination according to what you think is the best.

You do not get saved by a priest or a pastor.

Only Jesus saves, and he saves those who search for his teachings and do what he says.

Guess that leaves you out.
 
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