It is not that hard to understand. Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is an action or disposition of God toward us.
Merit is that which is earned or deserved. Nothing one did, does, or will do obligates God to dispense His grace.
There is only One Person having claim to merit: Our Lord Jesus Christ.
The condign merit of Our Lord's active and passive obedience is imputed to sinners who have no intrinsic merits. Condign merit is a situation where the action is in direct proportion to the reward, and where the action is of the kind necessary to obtain the reward. Imputation is two-way, towards us, and towards Our Lord. His righteousness is imputed to us, our sins are imputed to Him (2 Cor. 5:21).
More on imputation:
Spoiler
From Cairns, A. (2002). Dictionary of Theological Terms, the term imputation is explained as follows (pp. 225–226):
IMPUTATION
A forensic term that denotes the reckoning or placing to a person’s account the merit or guilt that belongs to him on the basis of his personal performance or of that of his federal head. While impute is used in Scripture to express the idea of receiving the just reward of our deeds (Lev. 7:18; 17:4; 2 Sam. 19:19), imputation as a theological term normally carries one of two meanings:
1. Imputation of Adam’s Sin
First, it describes the transmission of the guilt of Adam’s first sin to his descendants. It is imputed, or reckoned, to them; i.e., it is laid to their account. Paul’s statement is unambiguous:
“By one man’s disobedience many were made [constituted] sinners” (Rom. 5:19).
Some Reformed theologians ground the imputation of Adam’s sin in the real involvement of all his posterity in his sin, because of the specific unity of the race in him. Shedd strongly advocates this view in his Dogmatic Theology. Others—e.g., Charles and A. A. Hodge, and Louis Berkhof—refer all to the federal headship of Adam. The Westminster Standards emphasize that Adam is both the federal head and the root of all his posterity. Both parties accept that this is so. Thus, the dispute is not whether Adam’s federal headship is the ground of the imputation of his first sin to us, but whether that federal headship rests solely on a divine constitution—i.e., because God appointed it—or on the fact that God made him the actual root of the race and gave the race a real specific unity in him.
The theory of mediate imputation has never gained acceptance in orthodox expressions of the Reformed Faith. It is subversive to the entire concept of the imputation of Adam’s sin upon which Paul grounds his exposition of justification by virtue of union with Christ our righteousness (Rom. 5:12–19; 1 Cor. 15:22).
Paul’s statement of the imputation of Adam’s sin to his posterity is stark:
“By [through] one man sin entered into the world, and death by [through] sin; so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12).
In the AV the clause “for all have sinned” may give the impression that Paul’s argument is that all die like Adam because all, like him, have sinned. But this is not the case. His statement is, “Death passed upon all humanity inasmuch as all sinned.” He teaches that all participated in Adam’s sin and that both the guilt and the penalty of that sin were transmitted to them. However we explain the mode of that participation—whether on purely federal or on traducianist-federal grounds—the fact of it stands as a fundamental of the Christian revelation. As the Shorter Catechism says, “The covenant [of works] being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity, all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression” (Question 16, emphasis added.)
2. Imputation of our Sin to Christ and of His Righteousness to Us
Second, imputation has a second major use in Scripture. It describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense
“imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He—(1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and (2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons legally invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9. As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is only of guilt from us to Him, and of merit from Him to us. He justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9”
- (A. A. Hodge, Outlines of Theology, chap. 30, Q. 15).
The fact of this imputation is inescapable:
“By the obedience of one [Christ] shall many be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19).
The ground of it is the real, vital, personal, spiritual and federal union of Christ with His people. It is indispensable to the biblical doctrine of justification. Without it, we fail to do justice to Paul’s teaching, and we cannot lead believers into the comfort that the gospel holds out to them. That comfort is of a perfect legal release from guilt and of a perfect legal righteousness that establishes a secure standing before God and His law on the basis of a perfect obedience outside of their own subjective experience.
The double imputation of our sin to Christ and of His righteousness to us is clearly laid down in 2 Cor. 5:21:
“He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
Hugh Martin’s paraphrase catches the meaning precisely: “God made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, who knew no righteousness, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” That Paul means us to understand a judicial act of imputation is clear. God did not make Christ personally a sinner. The reference is not to Christ’s subjective experience. He was as personally sinless and impeccable when He was bearing our sins on the cross as He had ever been. What Paul is describing is God’s act of reckoning our sin to Christ so as to make Him legally liable for it and all its consequences. Similarly, while believers are not by any means righteous in their subjective experience, God reckons to them the full merit of Christ’s obedience in life and death (Rom. 5:18, 19). That righteousness, not any attained virtue, is the ground of a believer’s acceptance with God.
The merit of Christ comes to us by grace through faith. When considering one's salvation there is no such thing as congruent merit (merit with a little help, as in performing good works and obligating God for reward).
We grow in grace, not by a quantitative measure of some substance in us, but by the merciful assistance of God the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, acting graciously toward us and upon us. The means of grace God gives to assist us in our walk of faith include Scripture, the sacraments, prayer, fellowship, and the nurture of the church.
I have been impressed on this matter... Ugh... I can't believe I'm saying this... well... (kicking dirt around)... um... (stammering)...
Alright! I think it is genuinely cool that you put the raw concept of meritless grace in the main body of your post, while nesting various theological nuances in spoiler format! You recognized our common ground and added information from many various angles that could assist an individual with the understanding of "grace".
On this single matter of [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION], I wasn't joking, nor did I think you thought I was. She is continually speaking from the stance of Unlimited Election and Limited Atonement.
Theologically, she seems to be wired for Reformed understanding. Seeing as Grace is the "heart" of the matter, I genuinely believe that you are better equipped to communicate with GT. I'm not even certain that GT realizes that they have embraced the two points, but I see it, plain as day. GT doesn't seem to understand what you consider to be "Total Depravity". The I and the P are of no use to an individual if they don't understand some need to "Turn Away".
For the sake of the Gospel, I am saying this and especially for the sake of GT, who is utterly passionate about Christ.
The theological mechanisms within your spoiler are all educational perspectives and concepts that may or may not help an individual "see" matters more clearly. But, the "Kill em all" of the matter is the important part. The turning away of the matter and truly "dying" to the flesh in the true "repentance" sense is paramount! Your description of "unmerited grace" and "imputation" is excellent.
Keep that hat on old man and don't let it get too tight!
I have been impressed on this matter... Ugh... I can't believe I'm saying this... well... (kicking dirt around)... um... (stammering)...
Alright! I think it is genuinely cool that you put the raw concept of meritless grace in the main body of your post, while nesting various theological nuances in spoiler format! You recognized our common ground and added information from many various angles that could assist an individual with the understanding of "grace".
On this single matter of [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION], I wasn't joking, nor did I think you thought I was. She is continually speaking from the stance of Unlimited Election and Limited Atonement.
Theologically, she seems to be wired for Reformed understanding. Seeing as Grace is the "heart" of the matter, I genuinely believe that you are better equipped to communicate with GT. I'm not even certain that GT realizes that they have embraced the two points, but I see it, plain as day. GT doesn't seem to understand what you consider to be "Total Depravity". The I and the P are of no use to an individual if they don't understand some need to "Turn Away".
For the sake of the Gospel, I am saying this and especially for the sake of GT, who is utterly passionate about Christ.
The theological mechanisms within your spoiler are all educational perspectives and concepts that may or may not help an individual "see" matters more clearly. But, the "Kill em all" of the matter is the important part. The turning away of the matter and truly "dying" to the flesh in the true "repentance" sense is paramount! Your description of "unmerited grace" and "imputation" is excellent.
Keep that hat on old man and don't let it get too tight!
It is not that hard to understand. Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is an action or disposition of God toward us.
Merit is that which is earned or deserved. Nothing one did, does, or will do obligates God to dispense His grace.
There is only One Person having claim to merit: Our Lord Jesus Christ.
The condign merit of Our Lord's active and passive obedience is imputed to sinners who have no intrinsic merits. Condign merit is a situation where the action is in direct proportion to the reward, and where the action is of the kind necessary to obtain the reward. Imputation is two-way, towards us, and towards Our Lord. His righteousness is imputed to us, our sins are imputed to Him (2 Cor. 5:21).
More on imputation:
Spoiler
From Cairns, A. (2002). Dictionary of Theological Terms, the term imputation is explained as follows (pp. 225–226):
IMPUTATION
A forensic term that denotes the reckoning or placing to a person’s account the merit or guilt that belongs to him on the basis of his personal performance or of that of his federal head. While impute is used in Scripture to express the idea of receiving the just reward of our deeds (Lev. 7:18; 17:4; 2 Sam. 19:19), imputation as a theological term normally carries one of two meanings:
1. Imputation of Adam’s Sin
First, it describes the transmission of the guilt of Adam’s first sin to his descendants. It is imputed, or reckoned, to them; i.e., it is laid to their account. Paul’s statement is unambiguous:
“By one man’s disobedience many were made [constituted] sinners” (Rom. 5:19).
Some Reformed theologians ground the imputation of Adam’s sin in the real involvement of all his posterity in his sin, because of the specific unity of the race in him. Shedd strongly advocates this view in his Dogmatic Theology. Others—e.g., Charles and A. A. Hodge, and Louis Berkhof—refer all to the federal headship of Adam. The Westminster Standards emphasize that Adam is both the federal head and the root of all his posterity. Both parties accept that this is so. Thus, the dispute is not whether Adam’s federal headship is the ground of the imputation of his first sin to us, but whether that federal headship rests solely on a divine constitution—i.e., because God appointed it—or on the fact that God made him the actual root of the race and gave the race a real specific unity in him.
The theory of mediate imputation has never gained acceptance in orthodox expressions of the Reformed Faith. It is subversive to the entire concept of the imputation of Adam’s sin upon which Paul grounds his exposition of justification by virtue of union with Christ our righteousness (Rom. 5:12–19; 1 Cor. 15:22).
Paul’s statement of the imputation of Adam’s sin to his posterity is stark:
“By [through] one man sin entered into the world, and death by [through] sin; so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12).
In the AV the clause “for all have sinned” may give the impression that Paul’s argument is that all die like Adam because all, like him, have sinned. But this is not the case. His statement is, “Death passed upon all humanity inasmuch as all sinned.” He teaches that all participated in Adam’s sin and that both the guilt and the penalty of that sin were transmitted to them. However we explain the mode of that participation—whether on purely federal or on traducianist-federal grounds—the fact of it stands as a fundamental of the Christian revelation. As the Shorter Catechism says, “The covenant [of works] being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity, all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression” (Question 16, emphasis added.)
2. Imputation of our Sin to Christ and of His Righteousness to Us
Second, imputation has a second major use in Scripture. It describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense
“imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He—(1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and (2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons legally invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9. As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is only of guilt from us to Him, and of merit from Him to us. He justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9”
- (A. A. Hodge, Outlines of Theology, chap. 30, Q. 15).
The fact of this imputation is inescapable:
“By the obedience of one [Christ] shall many be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19).
The ground of it is the real, vital, personal, spiritual and federal union of Christ with His people. It is indispensable to the biblical doctrine of justification. Without it, we fail to do justice to Paul’s teaching, and we cannot lead believers into the comfort that the gospel holds out to them. That comfort is of a perfect legal release from guilt and of a perfect legal righteousness that establishes a secure standing before God and His law on the basis of a perfect obedience outside of their own subjective experience.
The double imputation of our sin to Christ and of His righteousness to us is clearly laid down in 2 Cor. 5:21:
“He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
Hugh Martin’s paraphrase catches the meaning precisely: “God made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, who knew no righteousness, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” That Paul means us to understand a judicial act of imputation is clear. God did not make Christ personally a sinner. The reference is not to Christ’s subjective experience. He was as personally sinless and impeccable when He was bearing our sins on the cross as He had ever been. What Paul is describing is God’s act of reckoning our sin to Christ so as to make Him legally liable for it and all its consequences. Similarly, while believers are not by any means righteous in their subjective experience, God reckons to them the full merit of Christ’s obedience in life and death (Rom. 5:18, 19). That righteousness, not any attained virtue, is the ground of a believer’s acceptance with God.
The merit of Christ comes to us by grace through faith. When considering one's salvation there is no such thing as congruent merit (merit with a little help, as in performing good works and obligating God for reward).
We grow in grace, not by a quantitative measure of some substance in us, but by the merciful assistance of God the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, acting graciously toward us and upon us. The means of grace God gives to assist us in our walk of faith include Scripture, the sacraments, prayer, fellowship, and the nurture of the church.
Men and women used to have to do many works to justify/clean/sanctify/purify themselves.
They had to live every day of their lives dependent on the sacrifice of animal blood, and earthly temple and an earthly priest.
Try to respond to exactly what I am saying, instead of posting links and nonsense words.
The people used to have to do many purification/ceremonial/cleaning/sanctification WORKS to clean themselves.
Do you understand that?
Do you understand that there were works for the people to justify themselves before God?
Answer yes or no plainly!
Those works no longer are required...however, we STILL need to be cleaned/sanctified, and justified.
...but no longer by our works of circumcision, the dietary laws, the various external washings when one had a natural discharge, or anyone who sat where someone with a discharge sat...no longer an animal in which it's blood can clean us...NOW, only faith that Jesus' blood cleans us IS WHAT CLEANS us.
That is God's grace.
We NO longer have to clean ourselves....or in the case of the Gentiles...we NO LONGER NEED to be EXCLUDED AND WITHOUT GOD for our NOT cleaning ourselves...
We no longer have to clean ourselves just to go to the temple to worship God where His Spirit was, for Jesus cleans us and WE BECOME THE TEMPLE.
Now respond to that if a blind man can all of a sudden see...to do that, humble yourself, repent, and call on Jesus.
I'm not equipped to debate with you. I am impressed on this. You banter with me and it may happen again, but... AMR has said some important things in the post I dropped your name in. If you want to see me judge... hop over to the Jesus is separate from Jehovah thread. You receive my "nice side".
Please fix my quote if you speed quoted! An IPhone macro was tripped and I would deeply appreciate it if you erased it if you speed quote me.
Alright! I think it is genuinely cool that you put the raw concept of meritless grace in the main body of your post, while nesting various theological nuances in spoiler format! You recognized our common ground and added information from many various angles that could assist an individual with the understanding of "grace".
Perhaps she (God's Truth) will realize that Unlimited Election and Particular Atonement are immiscible when both are assumed true in the same sense and in the same way, that is, a direct violation of the law of non-contradiction.
nope! I just enjoy reading many of his posts because there is wisdom in many of them. I may nt agree with everything that he says or believes but they are secondary issues that we need not argue over. When someone has something good that Ilike to read and agree with most of it then I like to tell them. It is polite and we are to encourage and buld eachother up.
but to be honest I have n had the opportunity to read this entire thread and have not had the time to understand everyone on this site's theology becaue I have only been a memeber for a short time so I could definately be mistaken
Men and women used to have to do many works to justify/clean/sanctify/purify themselves.
They had to live every day of their lives dependent on the sacrifice of animal blood, and earthly temple and an earthly priest.
Try to respond to exactly what I am saying, instead of posting links and nonsense words.
The people used to have to do many purification/ceremonial/cleaning/sanctification WORKS to clean themselves.
Do you understand that?
Do you understand that there were works for the people to justify themselves before God?
Answer yes or no plainly!
Those works no longer are required...however, we STILL need to be cleaned/sanctified, and justified.
...but no longer by our works of circumcision, the dietary laws, the various external washings when one had a natural discharge, or anyone who sat where someone with a discharge sat...no longer an animal in which it's blood can clean us...NOW, only faith that Jesus' blood cleans us IS WHAT CLEANS us.
That is God's grace.
We NO longer have to clean ourselves....or in the case of the Gentiles...we NO LONGER NEED to be EXCLUDED AND WITHOUT GOD for our NOT cleaning ourselves...
We no longer have to clean ourselves just to go to the temple to worship God where His Spirit was, for Jesus cleans us and WE BECOME THE TEMPLE.
Now respond to that if a blind man can all of a sudden see...to do that, humble yourself, repent, and call on Jesus.
I've read this 10 times! I will keep my promise if this leads where it seems to be leading. I have chased down the heart of GT's message and there seems to be a fair more expression in here. The word "obey" has been omitted. Faith is present and a solid temple analogy has been given.
IDK
GT is ornery as ever with the repent statement, but the Hebrews reference is there. I'll be watching intently to see where this leads.
All blessings to you and [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION]'s communications.
Grace is the issue and I'm not the communicator on the matter. Sola fide, Sola Gratia, Solo Christo are all that matter at this moment in time. I will relinquish my rebuttal for the purpose of your dialogue with AMR.
Grace is the issue and I'm not the communicator on the matter. Sola fide, Sola Gratia, Solo Christo are all that matter at this moment in time. I will relinquish my rebuttal for the purpose of your dialogue with AMR.
Do not be overly sensitive. Nothing in my above is an insult. It is but an observation that voting in the poll is a small thing given what you have already posted. I really do not understand why you are making it out to be some grave line in the sand.
"If you can"? See what you are doing there? How is what you just did reconciled with what you just suggested earlier...
"You both should begin every and all debates in a nonjudgmental way, but neither of you do."
No matter. Moving on now.
How exactly do you understand justification? What does it mean? When does it occur?
Unlike those that just ask questions in hopes of forthcoming "Gotchas!" (not that I am assuming this is the case for you!), I am happy to provide my views on the matter up front:
I'm not equipped to debate with you. I am impressed on this. You banter with me and it may happen again, but... AMR has said some important things in the post I dropped your name in. If you want to see me judge... hop over to the Jesus is separate from Jehovah thread. You receive my "nice side".
Please fix my quote if you speed quoted! An IPhone macro was tripped and I would deeply appreciate it if you erased it if you speed quote me.
Perhaps she (God's Truth) will realize that Unlimited Election and Particular Atonement are immiscible when both are assumed true in the same sense and in the same way, that is, a direct violation of the law of non-contradiction.
God made the plan for salvation and it had nothing to do with what we did because He made the plan before the creation of the world.
God chooses those who do right.
See Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
The truth is, it is God accepting ALL who obey by fearing Him, they are the ones to whom the gospel message has been sent.
Acts 10:35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
God chooses...read who and why, for Calvinistic reasoning is that no one knows why and that it has nothing to do with us, but that is a lie.
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Do you understand why God chooses the foolish to shame the wise? I would love to tell you why.
1 Corinthians 1:28
God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
2 Thessalonians 2:13
[ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
They are loved by God because they love God by obeying. Do you want the scripture that says that?
Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,
James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?
See, we are told why God chooses those He saves. Do you understand who they are?
Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
2 John 1:13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God, send their greetings.
Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Jesus says those he is pleased to give it.
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Again, Calvinists say they do not know why God chooses whom He saves and that it has nothing to do with us...that is a lie.
nope! I just enjoy reading many of his posts because there is wisdom in many of them. I may nt agree with everything that he says or believes but they are secondary issues that we need not argue over. When someone has something good that Ilike to read and agree with most of it then I like to tell them. It is polite and we are to encourage and buld eachother up.
but to be honest I have n had the opportunity to read this entire thread and have not had the time to understand everyone on this site's theology becaue I have only been a memeber for a short time so I could definately be mistaken
Thank you for the explanation. I am interested in finding out your beliefs. I hope that you will find some of the beliefs here wrongly strange as I do, such as the one by the Madists.
I've read this 10 times! I will keep my promise if this leads where it seems to be leading. I have chased down the heart of GT's message and there seems to be a fair more expression in here. The word "obey" has been omitted. Faith is present and a solid temple analogy has been given.
IDK
GT is ornery as ever with the repent statement, but the Hebrews reference is there. I'll be watching intently to see where this leads.
All blessings to you and [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION]'s communications.
