The UN demands the US pay Reparations

Traditio · Feb 1, 2016

Selaphiel said:
If you knew anything about music, you would know that beat is a musical concept. Hip hop and rap focuses on beat and rhythm over melody.

There is a certain beat and rhythm if I simply read the Latin version of Virgil's Aeneid. Therefore, my recitation of Virgil is music.

"We have gained" and "we have lost". Are they not part of that "we" themselves? What if their lacking productivity is due to the very abuse they seek reparations for?

I believe that you are still misunderstanding the argument.

Let us suppose, says RexLunae, that my father owned slaves and gained wealth thereby. Would their children, RexLunae asks, not be justified in insisting that I fork over whatever benefit my father derived thereby?

That's all good and well.

But slavery ended roughly 150 years ago. How do we make these determinations 150 years later?

"Black people have involuntarily benefited us 150 years ago! They need to be paid back!"

Fine...but why do you only insist on those particular benefits? Why not focus on the entire impact of black people being present in America from the beginning of slave trade to the present day?

I have several complaints about black people.

To which, of course, you might answer that those complaints are due to historically unjust treatment, but that is of no account in answering the point at hand.

So acapella and Gregorian chant is not music? That's a rather strange definition of music.

The human voice, I grant, is a musical instrument. But they are hardly comparable to rap.

And why focus simply on rap as a musical genre? The entire hip hop culture is simply repugnant.

Music is defined by instruments only insofar that instruments are what makes us able to produce melody, beat, rhytm and harmony.

I'm inclined to think that melody and harmony are the most important parts of music. But then, that might just be the Platonist/Pythagorean speaking.

Hip-hop and rap doesn't use instruments? It may use synthesizers and the human voice and what not, but their purpose is to produce melody, beat, rhytm, melody and harmony as well. Rap and Hip hop focusing on beat and rhytm.

So if I get some synthesizers and start reciting the Aeneid, that's music?

Yes, because social scientists have no idea how to check correlations and form proper hypotheses...

You've misunderstood. My point is that correlation and causation are two quite distinct concepts. It may well be the case that poor people in fact commit more rapes and more murders, but you can scarcely argue on this basis that they rape and murder because they are poor.

It would be an ad hominem fallacy if I followed it up with a "therefore you are wrong".

"You are an idiot." Is not an ad hominem fallacy, it is just rude.

"You are an idiot, therefore you are wrong." That would be an ad hominem fallacy.

Two points:

1. Let us suppose that you are simply being rude and insulting, and are not speaking argumentatively. Fine. In that case, you are not making a fallacious argument; you are simply failing to argue at all. Why waste my and your time?

2. In point of fact, RexLunae was speaking argumentatively. Again, his argument was:

A or B.
A is racist.
Therefore, B.

rexlunae · Feb 1, 2016

Traditio said:
RexLunae:

Let us suppose that everything that you've just said is perfectly true. Let us assume that.

Nonetheless, what you've said is irrelevant to the point which was at issue, i.e., whether black persons are unjustly treated by the legal system.

Did you forget the title of your own thread? The question you asked was whether reparations are due, not whether black people are treated fairly by the justice system.

Traditio said:
To which your argument was, in effect:

"Agree with me that they are, or else, you're a racist bigot."

Sorry, but I'm not convinced.

I haven't made any argument even remotely like that. And I can only assume that you aren't reading my arguments are attempting to understand them.

Traditio · Feb 1, 2016

rexlunae said:
Did you forget the title of your own thread? The question you asked was whether reparations are due, not whether black people are treated fairly by the justice system.

This is the posting to which you responded:

"In the previous thread to which I was referring, RexLunae's argument was essentially this:

Either the cause of inequality between black people and non-black people in terms of arrest rates, sentencing, etc. is because of society/the system, or else, because of black people.

The latter is racist. Therefore, the former is the case.

In other words:

Either agree with me, or else, you're a racist bigot."

The discussion in the previous thread to which I was referring appertained to the treatment of black people in the legal system. As such, the answer that you gave was irrelevant to that posting.

I haven't made any argument even remotely like that. And I can only assume that you aren't reading my arguments are attempting to understand them.

1. Either the inequality of treatment between blacks and whites in the legal system is due to the system or to black people.
2. To affirm the latter is racist.
3. Therefore, it's because of the system.

You don't remember making this argument?

If you do remember it and no longer hold it, you are, of course, perfectly free to admit after the fact that it was a bad one. :idunno:

rexlunae · Feb 1, 2016

genuineoriginal said:
My ancestors came here voluntarily.

You are claiming that black people did not come here voluntarily, so they should have no claim on remaining here voluntarily.

I'm wondering where you got that. Are you actually suggesting that people who are here because their ancestors were kidnapped and forced to work for free as slaves don't have a claim to citizenship?

genuineoriginal said:
I see you (alone) are taking responsibility for enslaving black people.
Therefore, you (alone) should pay restitution.
Problem solved.

Oh, gee, that's brilliant. It's the rough equivalent of "he who smelt it, dealt it."...but with slavery.

genuineoriginal said:
It comes down to whether the person has assimilated into the American culture or is refusing to be assimilated.

I barely know where to start. First of all, you're saying that it is the onus of the people whose ancestors were kidnapped to assimilate into the culture of the dominant group that allowed and participated in the kidnapping and who partake of its fruits. And then, who decides what constitutes "American culture"? You don't think the descendants of slaves have at least as valid a claim to that as anyone else? And further, America idealizes being a multicultural society. Why should anyone feel obligated to assimilate in order to be accepted?

genuineoriginal said:
Yes, colleges and universities give preference to racial minorities because it is in their best interests to continue to receive Federal funding in the forms of student loans and grants, despite having to admit people based on race that do not meet the admission standards set for general admission.

I don't know of any federal programs premised upon race like that.

genuineoriginal said:
In other words, this is sufficient reparation for any perceived loss in social or economic means due to having dark skin?

No.

ok doser · Feb 1, 2016

rexlunae said:
... their ancestors were kidnapped ...

kidnapped by whom?

and should i expect recourse for the unjust way my puritan ancestors were driven out of England?

rexlunae · Feb 1, 2016

ok doser said:
kidnapped by whom?

Slave traders and owners.

ok doser said:
and should i expect recourse for the unjust way my puritan ancestors were driven out of England?

I suggest you direct those questions to the English.

ok doser · Feb 1, 2016

rexlunae said:
Slave traders and owners.

i've never been a slave trader or owner

neither have my parents

or their parents

or their parents

or their parents

I suggest you direct those questions to the English.

not worth the bother

Traditio · Feb 1, 2016

rexlunae said:
I suggest you direct those questions to the English.

That's such a cop-out, and you know it. :nono:

genuineoriginal · Feb 1, 2016

rexlunae said:
I'm wondering where you got that. Are you actually suggesting that people who are here because their ancestors were kidnapped and forced to work for free as slaves don't have a claim to citizenship?

Are you claiming that people whose ancestors were kidnapped and relocated should be given some kind of reparation other than being returned to the land that their ancestors were kidnapped from?

Why would you think anything else would be appropriate?

rexlunae said:
Oh, gee, that's brilliant. It's the rough equivalent of "he who smelt it, dealt it."...but with slavery.

No, it is the typical right wing response to a left wing nut who is trying to get other people to pay for his "brilliant" idea instead of paying for it himself.
It is your idea, you pay for it, and keep your hands out of my pockets.

rexlunae said:
I barely know where to start. First of all, you're saying that it is the onus of the people whose ancestors were kidnapped to assimilate into the culture of the dominant group that allowed and participated in the kidnapping and who partake of its fruits.

Why should anyone feel obligated to assimilate in order to be accepted?

If you want to live in a culture, then you will assimilate to that culture.
If you don't want to assimilate, then don't stay in a culture you don't like, move somewhere else.

rexlunae said:
And further, America idealizes being a multicultural society.

That is a liberal lie used to make hatred for the historical American culture acceptable.

rexlunae said:
I don't know of any federal programs premised upon race like that.

_____
Preferential Treatment for Federal Student Aid

All public and private colleges that receive federal financial aid are permitted to use an applicant's minority status when allocating funds among students. This means that if two students have similar applications, more financial aid can be given to a minority student on the basis of race or gender. However, there must be evidence of past discrimination at the specific school or it must be attempting to create a more diverse student body before affirmative action policies can be used for federal financial aid awards. Similar rules apply to private scholarship awards at colleges that receive federal funds.
_____

rexlunae said:
No.

Why not?
Is enough ever enough?

genuineoriginal · Feb 1, 2016

rexlunae said:
Slave traders

Muslims?
How are you going to get them to make reparations?

rexlunae said:
and owners.

Owning slaves was legal, the slaves were legally purchased in good faith, so no reparations are owed from the owners of the slaves.

serpentdove · Feb 1, 2016

ok doser said:
i've never been a slave trader or owner

neither have my parents

or their parents

or their parents

or their parents...

I've never owned Michelle Obama...

K: or Michelle's mother...or Michelle's mother's mother. :idunno:

Also see:

Big Rig Wants to Weigh Your Kids

Wide Load Wants to Control Your Food

Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others ~ The Smiths

journey · Feb 1, 2016

Ktoyou said:
I think we may as well send the UN a bill and get out.

Yes, the above.

serpentdove · Feb 1, 2016

genuineoriginal said:
Muslims? How are you going to get them to make reparations?

Will the Vatican give us a refund for Waraquah, Muhammad's Catholic wife

linger: who helped create :CRASH: Islam? :idunno:

They've got the money--they sure as hell aren't giving it to the poor. :greedy:

Ask antichrist Walid Shoebat :reals: what he thinks (2 Pe 2:1). Or his CathOlic :freak: wife. :BRAVO: She'll set us straight.

See:

How the Vatican created Islam

Lie to the Infidel: ‘Taqiyya’: How Islamic Extremists Deceive the West

rexlunae · Feb 1, 2016

genuineoriginal said:
Are you claiming that people whose ancestors were kidnapped and relocated should be given some kind of reparation other than being returned to the land that their ancestors were kidnapped from?

Why would you think anything else would be appropriate?

You act as if the main problem with the kidnapping was the geographic displacement. But that's not it at all. If someone locked you up, and your children, and their children for twenty generations, do you think the only thing owed would be bus fare "home", whatever that could mean at that point?

I think the thing that would be most appropriate would be money. Money is ultimately what motivated the slave trade, from the capture of individual slaves, to sailing them across the ocean in irons, to growing the cotton on the plantations. Money doesn't actually make up for the wrong, but it most directly speaks to the motivations of the men who did wrong in the first place.

genuineoriginal said:
No, it is the typical right wing response to a left wing nut who is trying to get other people to pay for his "brilliant" idea instead of paying for it himself.
It is your idea, you pay for it, and keep your hands out of my pockets.

It's not my idea, and while I realize that Christians may like the idea of substitutionary justice, I don't buy into the idea. All of this country has participated, it's on all of us.

Just because you disavow any responsibility doesn't mean you aren't responsible in part.

genuineoriginal said:
If you want to live in a culture, then you will assimilate to that culture.
If you don't want to assimilate, then don't stay in a culture you don't like, move somewhere else.

They have as much right to define the culture as anyone else, and they've made enormous contributions already.

genuineoriginal said:
That is a liberal lie used to make hatred for the historical American culture acceptable.

Nope.

genuineoriginal said:
_____
Preferential Treatment for Federal Student Aid

All public and private colleges that receive federal financial aid are permitted to use an applicant's minority status when allocating funds among students. This means that if two students have similar applications, more financial aid can be given to a minority student on the basis of race or gender. However, there must be evidence of past discrimination at the specific school or it must be attempting to create a more diverse student body before affirmative action policies can be used for federal financial aid awards. Similar rules apply to private scholarship awards at colleges that receive federal funds.
_____

So...schools are permitted to continue to receive financial aid while attempting to achieve diversity. Oh yeah, practically giving the farm away.

genuineoriginal said:
Why not?
Is enough ever enough?

Lets find out sometime, shall we?

rexlunae · Feb 1, 2016

genuineoriginal said:
Muslims?

Not all slave traders were Muslims.

genuineoriginal said:
How are you going to get them to make reparations?

Not my country, not my problem. I might help go after people in other countries if a traceable link of responsibility can be found though.

You might as well argue that unless you can correct every injustice in the world, you shouldn't bother with any. Well, I think that's a lame excuse not to do anything.

genuineoriginal said:
Owning slaves was legal, the slaves were legally purchased in good faith, so no reparations are owed from the owners of the slaves.

Ah, yes, you can't have an ex post facto law. That's true, constitutionally. So, we'd probably need to set up a system that rewards the descendants of slaves without directly punishing slaveholders' heirs.

rexlunae · Feb 1, 2016

Traditio said:
That's such a cop-out, and you know it. :nono:

Only in the sense that I don't intend to solve every injustice all at once. If you can get away with one crime by pointing out that someone else got away with something similar, you might as well just not bother making anything illegal.

annabenedetti · Feb 1, 2016

rexlunae said:
There has never in the history of the United States been a time when black people really got a fair chance at success in this country. Slavery may have formally ended in the mid-19th century, but legal discrimination continued long after that. And we aren't just talking about not being able to use the same restrooms and drinking fountains. We're talking about laws that sought to recreate the restricted freedom of slavery without formal chattel ownership. The FHA followed formal, intentional, undisguised segregationist policies until 1968, when my parents were adults. Given that there's good research showing that poverty has inter-generational effects regardless of race, and given that black poor people are even easier to discriminate against that other poor people, and that our country has had centuries of practice stereotyping and building mechanisms to hold back black people, and only decades trying to change that, I think that the burden of proof is entirely on anyone who claims that black people have had a fair shot at success. The changes that have abolished laws that legally discriminated are much more recent than a lot of people would like to believe.

Well said, rex.

rexlunae · Feb 1, 2016

ok doser said:
i've never been a slave trader or owner

neither have my parents

or their parents

or their parents

or their parents

That's good. Have you ever lived in the United States? Have you or your parents to any degree ever lived in a house that was built in part with federal money in a predominantly white area?

ok doser said:
not worth the bother

Your choice. It's at least a murkier case to make. I can see why you wouldn't want to try, but I'd just note that you can't be very serious about it.

genuineoriginal · Feb 1, 2016

rexlunae said:
You act as if the main problem with the kidnapping was the geographic displacement. But that's not it at all. If someone locked you up, and your children, and their children for twenty generations, do you think the only thing owed would be bus fare "home", whatever that could mean at that point?

Why are you holding the USA responsible for four hundred years of slavery?
The USA can only be responsible for slavery from 1789 to 1865, which is only seventy six years, which ends up being only three and three quarters generations, not twenty generations.

rexlunae said:
I think the thing that would be most appropriate would be money.

That is such a stupid statement that I am fully justified in calling you a moron.

rexlunae said:
All of this country has participated, it's on all of us.

Just because you disavow any responsibility doesn't mean you aren't responsible in part.

Just because you are painting me with a black brush by falsely claiming I am responsible, doesn't make me responsible in any way, shape, or fashion.
I come from a long line of people that have never owned slaves and that immigrated to the USA after the end of the civil war.

If you feel you are responsible, give your money away, but stop falsely accusing me of having anything to do with it.

rexlunae said:
Not all slave traders were Muslims.

Yes, but Christians are responsible for ending slavery, and you are demanding reparations from the descendants of the people that ended slavery instead of the people that still practice it.

rexlunae said:
You might as well argue that unless you can correct every injustice in the world, you shouldn't bother with any. Well, I think that's a lame excuse not to do anything.

The injustice of slavery has already been corrected, trying to do more is creating another injustice.

rexlunae · Feb 1, 2016

genuineoriginal said:
Why are you holding the USA responsible for four hundred years of slavery?
The USA can only be responsible for slavery from 1789 to 1865, which is only seventy six years, which ends up being only three and three quarters generations, not twenty generations.

If you owned a slave in Virginia Crown Colony in 1775, chances are you continued to own that slave after 1789. Changing sovereignty doesn't change property ownership, nor does changing the constitution, and it doesn't change legal or moral responsibility for actions either.

genuineoriginal said:
That is such a stupid statement that I am fully justified in calling you a moron.

In other words, you're out of arguments.

genuineoriginal said:
Just because you are painting me with a black brush by falsely claiming I am responsible, doesn't make me responsible in any way, shape, or fashion.

I'm not saying you're guilty of holding slaves. But if you are white you likely have benefited, if unwittingly, from slave labor, segregation, and discrimination.

genuineoriginal said:
I come from a long line of people that have never owned slaves and that immigrated to the USA after the end of the civil war.

Me too, as far as I know.

genuineoriginal said:
If you feel you are responsible, give your money away, but stop falsely accusing me of having anything to do with it.

Again, you're calling for a wholly inappropriate solution. I could give everything I have and it wouldn't make a dent. The nation is responsible, the nation should pay its moral debt.

genuineoriginal said:
Yes, but Christians are responsible for ending slavery, and you are demanding reparations from the descendants of the people that ended slavery instead of the people that still practice it.

Some Christians were. Some Christians were responsible for continuing it. The Confederacy was more Christian than the Union. And ending slavery is the least that we should have been done.

genuineoriginal said:
The injustice of slavery has already been corrected, trying to do more is creating another injustice.

Has it? Really? By what concrete steps? Banning slavery and what else?

The UN demands the US pay Reparations

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