Eternal Security

JAGG · Apr 1, 2020

JAGG Writes:

"I could be wrong but I do believe there is an aroma of Dispensationalism in the air.

"___JAGG

JudgeRightly Asks:

JudgeRightly said:
`
Do you have an axe to grind against dispensationalism?
`

Was there anything in my statement up there that gave you the
impression that I had an axe to grind against Dispensationalism?

I don't have an axe to grind against any of the 4 major views of
Christian Eschatology:

(1) Postmillennialism
(2) Amillennialism
(3) Premillennialism
(4) Dispensationalism

I have kind affections for all 4 eschatological positions. All are orthodox
and are held in good faith by the Christian scholars who represent each
view.

I have been a fully committed Postmillennialist for some 45 years.

Thought For Today:
`

Here is Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry's definition of Postmillennialism:
`

"Postmillennialism holds that the Lord Jesus Christ established His

kingdom on earth through His preaching and redemptive work in the

first century and that He equips His church with the gospel, empowers

her by the Holy Spirit, and charges her with the Great Commission to

disciple all nations. Postmillennialism expects that eventually the vast

majority of men living will be saved. Increasing gospel success will

gradually produce a time in history prior to Christ's return in which faith,

righteousness, peace, and prosperity will prevail in the affairs of men

and nations. After an extensive era of such conditions the Lord will

return visibly, bodily, and gloriously, to end history with the general

resurrection and the final Judgment after which the eternal order

follows."

Am I going to argue for Postmillennialism in this thread? Most likely
not. I gave you Dr. Gentry's definition of Postmillennialism only in an
attempt to make your day brighter.

oatmeal · Apr 1, 2020

Bright Raven said:
Do you believe in Eternal Security?

What do you mean by eternal security?

Does "eternal security" appear in scriptures?

Scripture does speak of eternal life and that it is available to those who believe. Romans 6:24;10:9

It is life everlasting.

Scripture tells us that God is faithful and that His word is faithful and that God performs His word when people belive

Bright Raven · Apr 1, 2020

oatmeal said:
What do you mean by eternal security?

Does "eternal security" appear in scriptures?

Scripture does speak of eternal life and that it is available to those who believe. Romans 6:24;10:9

It is life everlasting.

Scripture tells us that God is faithful and that His word is faithful and that God performs His word when people belive

It means that once saved, you are eternally secure in your salvation. Yes there are Scriptures that support the doctrine.

JAGG · Apr 1, 2020

Right Divider said:
`
Not rightly dividing is one of the prime reasons for division and arguments in
the Christian world.
`

I have been on the web a very long time and I have read many and many
a thread on just about every imaginable subject. It is clear as a bell that
humans get along together like cats and dogs and quarrel and snarl and
bicker and argue and bite and claw constantly over most every subject.

I have come to believe (in harmony with my mighty Postmillennialism) that
the human race is in it's infancy with regard to it's wisdom and maturity and is
in about the Third Grade with thousands of millenniums (no typo) yet to go
before we graduate as a senior in college, so to speak.

The human race, historically speaking, is a very immature child that wants
it's way and when it is denied what it wants, its throws a hissy fit tantrum
and kicks and screams to have its way on whatever it has decided it wants
and ought to have. On the Internet, the challenge for many is "How Far Can
I Go Without Getting BANNED?

For some others its:
How Far Can I Go Without Leaving The Strong Impression That I Have An
Ugly Un-Christian Spirit in my heart towards my fellow Christians. I am speaking
about the Internet at large and not about TOL.

On the Internet at large:
The Calvinists and the Armenians eat each other alive in the "name of Jesus"
as do the Protestants and the Roman Catholics. Before their threads arrive at
page 3, both sides smell blood in the water and gradually work up to biting and
clawing each other to death, all in the name of Jesus and for His glory, of course.

_______________

With regard to "rightly dividing" and who gets to decide who is, or is not, "rightly
dividing" the exchange is likely to go along these lines:

Bob: I am rightly dividing and you Tom are not and here is why!

Tom: No Bob, I am rightly dividing and you are not, and here is why!

Bob: That's nonsense Tom, you are not rightly dividing, but I am, and here is why!

Tom: That's totally absurd Bob, you are NOT rightly dividing, but I am, and here is why!

Bob: You saying it is so, does not make it so!

Tom: No, Bob, you saying it is so, does not make it so!

Etc etc

_________________

All that up there makes me want to read 1 Corinthians chapter 13

I think this below is the ultimate goal
`
:

`

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
`
Ephesians 4:11-13
`

JAGG · Apr 1, 2020

Bright Raven said:
`
It means that once saved, you are eternally secure in your salvation.

Yes there are Scriptures that support the doctrine.
`

Could you give me the 2 Scriptures that you hold to be the most convincing
and briefly explain why you believe they settle the issue?

I am asking, not to argue with you, but only because I want to read what you
believe on this subject.

Thanks.

Bright Raven · Apr 1, 2020

JAGG said:
Could you give me the 2 Scriptures that you hold to be the most convincing
and briefly explain why you believe they settle the issue?

I am asking, not to argue with you, but only because I want to read what you
believe on this subject.

Thanks.

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 10:27-29 King James Version (KJV)

²⁷My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

²⁸And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

²⁹My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

JAGG · Apr 1, 2020

JudgeRightly said:
`
Well, no, the NIV is not a much clearer and more accurate translation.
`

I checked Bible Gateway on how about 59 English translations of 2 Timothy 2:15
translate 2 Timothy 2:15 and I counted about 11 out of the 59 that had the word
"divide" in their translations. There were about 48 translations that did not have
the word "divide" in their translations.

So?

So what I said about the NIV being a better and more accurate translation of 2 Timothy 2:15
is supported by a significant majority of the translators of the Greek into English.

My only point in saying this, is to say that what I said about the NIV being a much clearer and
more accurate translation of 2 Timothy 2:15 is at least reasonable, and is on the side of a
significant majority of Christendom's Greek scholars who have translated the Greek of
2 Timothy 2:15 into English without using the word "divide".

.

.

Right Divider · Apr 1, 2020

JAGG said:
I have come to believe (in harmony with my mighty Postmillennialism) that
the human race is in it's infancy with regard to it's wisdom and maturity and is
in about the Third Grade with thousands of millenniums (no typo) yet to go
before we graduate as a senior in college, so to speak.

I can see where your confusion comes from.

JAGG · Apr 1, 2020

Bright Raven said:
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 10:27-29 King James Version (KJV)

²⁷My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

²⁸And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

²⁹My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Thank you, I appreciate your response to my request.

___________

Quote For Today:
`

“All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
`

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be the blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king.”

___Tolkien

JAGG · Apr 1, 2020

JudgeRightly said:
`
Teach the right thing. Don't teach the wrong thing.
`

Agreed.

All 4 major Christian eschatological views would say they agree with that.

JudgeRightly said:
The Bible teaches (that are relevant to this discussion) two dispensations, one of law, one of grace.

Agreed. That's as true, as true can ever be.

JudgeRightly said:
`
Prior to Paul was the dispensation of law, in which God gave to Moses (dispensed) the Law.
This dispensation which God gave to Paul was of grace.
`

"Prior to Paul" includes the 4 gospels and the book of Acts? And I guess on your lights
Hebrews and James and Peter and Jude and 1, 2, 3 John, and Revelation? I'm asking you,
not telling you.

So?

So John 10:28's "they shall never perish" was not spoken to the Christian Church?

But rather spoken to people still under the law?

So John 3:16 was not spoken to the Christian Church, but was spoken to the people still under the law?

(Notice my question marks at the end of those sentences.)

JudgeRightly said:
`

JudgeRightly said:
Paul says to rightly divide. That means that one needs to determine what he should take as advice to him,
and what was meant for others, but which he can learn from.
`

I think we just got into deep water with that up there.

I think we are heading into Subjectivity-Land where there is not going to
be any objective certainty-level that rises to the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4.

I mean somebody has to decide what is "advice to him' and what is "meant for others."
That is where the subjective argumentation is located, isn't it?

And somebody has to decide exactly what it is that "he can learn from" in the 4 gospels, right?
And what exactly it is that we CANNOT learn from, right?

JudgeRightly said:
`
If you are a dispensationalist, then you (might) recognize that there are different house rules
for Israel than there are for the Body of Christ, which is what the Bible teaches
`
.

Agreed. Agreed as you wrote it up there. But I still don't know where all this is heading?

There are some yet-unposted conclusions that are still not in sight.

Somebody has to decide what the "house rules" are, and what they are not.

JAGG · Apr 1, 2020

JudgeRightly said:
To the second question:

When Jesus told Peter to "Feed my sheep", was He not telling Peter to feed the saved who made up His body?---JAGG

This is a loaded question that assumes that Jesus was talking about "the saved" when He mentioned sheep.

I reject that premise, and so reject the question.

When Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep, He was referring to Israel, who were under the covenant of law, which they had to keep
if they wanted to be a part of the coming Kingdom.
`

Regarding that up there, I'm asking a question below::

Where we are heading is that each Bible reader has to read . . .

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Hebrews
James
1, 2 Peter
1,2,3 John
Jude
Revelation . . .

and decide what is, or is not, written to the Christian Church or written to Israel?

Is that correct?

Is that your view?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

JudgeRightly said:
They were not "saved" until they died and ONLY IF they had kept the law.
`

I don't KNOW that any human could keep the law and thereby be saved by law keeping.

oatmeal · Apr 1, 2020

Bright Raven said:
It means that once saved, you are eternally secure in your salvation. Yes there are Scriptures that support the doctrine.

Ok, since the gift of salvation is the gift of eternal life, then our spiritual salvation is eternal

for we are born again by incorruptible seed by the word of God that lives and abides forever.

I Peter 1:23

JAGG · Apr 1, 2020

Right Divider said:
`
Scripture clearly identifies the "sheep" as Israel. Ezekiel 34 is extremely clear on this issue
`
.

I don't get that? The Lord Jesus said in John 10 that His sheep followed Him and that
He gave them eternal life and that they shall never perish. If Israel are the sheep we
have a problem. Israel did NOT follow the Lord Jesus, Israel did the exact opposite of
that --- the nation of Israel killed the Lord Jesus and rejected the King and the Kingdom
offered to them. But Jesus said that His sheep followed Him.

So who was it in John 10, that was following Jesus? It was not the nation of Israel.

My view is that it was the saved aka the true believers aka His followers etc

And John 3:16 was spoken only to Israel? And not to the Christian Church?
That notion will be a jolting shock to Christendom.

I'm asking questions here, that's all. Trying to find out what conclusions you
are drawing from your principles.

Right Divider · Apr 1, 2020

JAGG said:
I don't get that? The Lord Jesus said in John 10 that His sheep followed Him and that
He gave them eternal life and that they shall never perish. If Israel are the sheep we
have a problem. Israel did NOT follow the Lord Jesus, Israel did the exact opposite of
that --- the nation of Israel killed the Lord Jesus and rejected the King and the Kingdom
offered to them. But Jesus said that His sheep followed Him.

In that CONTEXT, Jesus is clearly talking about believing Israel and not just Israel in general.

Did you look at Ezekiel 34?

JAGG said:
So who was it in John 10, that was following Jesus? It was not the nation of Israel.

Believing Israel, the remnant.

JAGG said:
My view is that it was the saved aka the true believers aka His followers etc

And John 3:16 was spoken only to Israel? And not to the Christian Church?
That notion will be a jolting shock to Christendom.

In some regards, Jesus came only for Israel. In other regards, He came for the whole world.

It's not that hard to understand if you connect the dots with the prophets of Israel.

JAGG said:
I'm asking questions here, that's all. Trying to find out what conclusions you
are drawing from your principles.

Paul says that when Jesus was on the earth, He was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made to the fathers. That is exactly what Jesus was doing during His earthly ministry.

At that time, Jesus did not reveal what He later revealed to and through the apostle Paul.

JAGG · Apr 1, 2020

Right Divider said:
In that CONTEXT, Jesus is clearly talking about believing Israel and not just Israel in general.

OK, that makes sense.

But "believing Israel" gradually morphed into regular saved people --- those that were allowed by God
to stay alive in those turbulent times. They became Christians and were first called Christians in Antioch
(Acts 11:26)

Right Divider said:
Did you look at Ezekiel 34?

Yes I looked at it. I don't see anything in Ezekiel 34 that compellingly connects to the 4 gospels and the
earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus.

But I am open to any solid argument connecting Ezekiel 34 to the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus.
Do you have one?

Right Divider said:
Believing Israel, the remnant.

Later called Christians and the saved and true believers etc.

Right Divider said:
`
In some regards, Jesus came only for Israel. In other regards, He came for the whole world.
`

Agreed.

Right Divider said:
It's not that hard to understand if you connect the dots with the prophets of Israel.

There are no compelling dots to connect. Its all by inference and inference is highly subjective
and saturated with our biases and opinions and our presuppositions.

But I am open to any arguments that you think are compelling, or at least solid, to support connecting
the dots between the prophets of Israel and the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus.

Right Divider said:
Paul says that when Jesus was on the earth, He was a minister of the circumcision to confirm
the promises made to the fathers. That is exactly what Jesus was doing during His earthly ministry.

That sounds okay to me. But the Lord Jesus did a lot MORE than being 'a minister to confirm the
promises made to the fathers". I'm sure you would agree with that!

Right Divider said:
At that time, Jesus did not reveal what He later revealed to and through the apostle Paul.

I agree with that also.

What I don't yet understand, is what are the MAJOR CONCLUSIONS that you are drawing from
your specific eschatological principles?

____________

Right Divider, thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions, much appreciated.

Right Divider · Apr 1, 2020

JAGG said:
OK, that makes sense.

Yes, it does.

JAGG said:
But "believing Israel" gradually morphed into regular saved people --- those that were allowed by God
to stay alive in those turbulent times. They became Christians and were first called Christians in Antioch
(Acts 11:26)

Believing Israel stayed in Jerusalem. Jesus told them to stay there. Even when everyone scattered into gentile lands, the twelve stayed in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1).

The believers in Antioch that were first called Christians were almost all gentiles. The believers in Jerusalem were called Jews/Israelite's.

JAGG said:
Yes I looked at it. I don't see anything in Ezekiel 34 that compellingly connects to the 4 gospels and the
earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus.

Then you're not looking carefully at all. Jesus is the ONE SHEPHERD mentioned there in 34:23-24.

JAGG said:
But I am open to any solid argument connecting Ezekiel 34 to the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus.
Do you have one?

See above.

JAGG said:
Later called Christians and the saved and true believers etc.

You're preaching Churchianity and not Biblical Christianity.

JAGG said:
Agreed.

:thumb:

JAGG said:
There are no compelling dots to connect. Its all by inference and inference is highly subjective
and saturated with our biases and opinions and our presuppositions.

But I am open to any arguments that you think are compelling, or at least solid, to support connecting
the dots between the prophets of Israel and the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus.

Believe whatever you want.

JAGG said:
That sounds okay to me. But the Lord Jesus did a lot MORE than being 'a minister to confirm the
promises made to the fathers". I'm sure you would agree with that!

Everything that Jesus did and said while on earth came from the law and the prophets.

JAGG said:
I agree with that also.

:thumb:

JAGG said:
Right Divider, thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions, much appreciated.

You're welcome.

JAGG · Apr 2, 2020

JAGG Writes:

I have come to believe (in harmony with my mighty Postmillennialism) that
the human race is in it's infancy with regard to it's wisdom and maturity and is
in about the Third Grade with thousands of millenniums (no typo) yet to go
before we graduate as a senior in college, so to speak

Right Divider Replies:

Right Divider said:
I can see where your confusion comes from.

Because we disagree on Christian Eschatology does not mean that
I am confused or that you are confused. It only means that two Bible
believing Christians disagree on the interpretation of the Biblical texts
regarding the present condition of the human race and the Christian
Church, and the future of the human race and the Christian Church.

I believe both the present and the future of the human race and the
Christian Church to be characterized by gradually realized victory.

I believe that when the Lord Jesus gave His disciples the Great
Commission at the end of Matthew's gospel that He actually meant
for His Christian Church to go forth, in the power of the Holy Spirit,
and make disciples of all the nations. And I believe that His Christian
Church will actually do that. Within Christ's Great Commission is the
the Lord Jesus' teaching that all power both in Heaven and on Earth
has NOW been given to Him --- He said THEREFORE go and make
disciples of all the nations.

"All authority in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me.
THEREFORE go and make disciples of all the nations"
Matthew 28:18-19

Right Divider · Apr 2, 2020

JAGG said:
I believe both the present and the future of the human race and the
Christian Church to be characterized by gradually realized victory.

No, we don't.

JAGG said:
I believe that when the Lord Jesus gave His disciples the Great
Commission at the end of Matthew's gospel that He actually meant
for His Christian Church to go forth, in the power of the Holy Spirit,
and make disciples of all the nations. And I believe that His Christian
Church will actually do that. Within Christ's Great Commission is the
the Lord Jesus' teaching that all power both in Heaven and on Earth
has NOW been given to Him --- He said THEREFORE go and make
disciples of all the nations.

Christ gave that commission to exactly 11 people (to be restored to twelve later) that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That is NOT the "commission" that we should be following.

Jesus told THEM to teach the law and not grace.

JAGG said:
"All authority in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me.
THEREFORE go and make disciples of all the nations"
Matthew 28:18-19

You're not one of the twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

JAGG · Apr 2, 2020

JAGG Said:

Yes I looked at it. I don't see anything in Ezekiel 34 that compellingly

connects to the 4 gospels and the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus.
`

Right Divider Replied:

Right Divider said:
`
Then you're not looking carefully at all. Jesus is the ONE SHEPHERD mentioned there in 34:23-24.
`

That is a claim. That is not evidence.

My view, at this point in time, is that it is utterly impossible to demonstrate that the Lord Jesus is the
ONE SHEPERD mentioned in Ezekiel 34:23-24.

If you look at the passage in context you see serious problems with that interpretation.
`

`
I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another.

I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd.

I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken. Ezekiel 34:22-24
`

Points About Ezekiel 34:22-24

(1) "I will save my flock"
The exact opposite of that actually occurred. Israel was not saved.
Israel was destroyed as a nation.

( 2 ) "and they will no longer be plundered"
The exact opposite of that actually occurred. The flock of Israel was indeed
plundered.

(3) "I will place over them ONE SHEPHERD my servant David"
Even if you ASSUME that is an indirect reference to the Lord Jesus,
you still have the problem that the Lord Jesus was NEVER their
shepherd and NEVER was God, their God. Israel said No! -- both
to God the Father and to His Son the Lord Jesus. Israel said,
Crucify Him, Crucify Him.

(4) "my servant David will be prince among them"
That NEVER happened. The exact opposite of that actually happened.
The nation of Israel killed their King and rejected the Kingdom.

(5) "he will tend them, and be their shepherd"
The exact opposite of that actually occurred.
The Lord Jesus did not "tend them" and did not "be their shepherd"
because Israel killed Him and said "We have no King but Caesar."

(6) Then lastly, it cannot be demonstrated that Ezekiel chapter 34
is connected to the Lord Jesus and His earthly ministry. So far as I know,
at this point in time, there is not a shred of solid evidence that connects
Ezekiel chapter 34 to the Lord Jesus.

But I am open-minded to receiving any solid evidence that the "one shepherd
my servant David" of Ezekiel 34: 23 is the Lord Jesus. But just making the
claim that it is, is not evidence.

Seriously, I am willing to learn. But I have to see convincing evidence that
connects Ezekiel chapter 34 to the Lord Jesus.

Right Divider · Apr 2, 2020

JAGG said:
That is a claim. That is not evidence.

My view, at this point in time, is that it is utterly impossible to demonstrate that the Lord Jesus is the
ONE SHEPERD mentioned in Ezekiel 34:23-24.

If you look at the passage in context you see serious problems with that interpretation.
`

Points About Ezekiel 34:22-24

(1) "I will save my flock"
The exact opposite of that actually occurred. Israel was not saved.
Israel was destroyed as a nation.

Ezekiel 34 is yet future since Israel rejected the one shepherd.

If you do not understand that Ezekiel 34 about Christ as the one shepherd, I cannot help you.

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