Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Lon
Well-known member
Again, read the concordance (I linked it). I disagree with most on this simply because I don't want to discount whatever is actual. For the most part, the idea of eternal torment is the default position. Annihilation has always been the minority view. Does that mean right? No, not by necessity but Both Matthew 25:46 and Luke 16:19-31;24
leave me unable to close the gap. It seems to me, a very real possibility. Is it a motivator toward an unbeliever? No, they neither respond to annihilation or eternal suffering. For me, it becomes academic toward those who will not be saved. Genesis 18:25 says the Judge of all those on earth, will do right. For me, a trust in that/Him takes care of needing to overtly debate. It isn't on my 'must have this duck in line' list.
Lon
Well-known member
This is why I gave links to the concordance. Spend a few moments on the links:
Here they are again
Matthew 7:13 Destruction
and
Matthew 25:46 Chastisement (the highlighted verse is a separate link to just the verse whereas the second, the word is the concordance link)
Aimiel
Well-known member
It is, quite logically. How could smoke, coming from torment, ascending for ever and ever NOT prove that the torment never ends? If it ended, the smoke would dissipate, as smoke does, very quickly. :duh:
Aimiel,
re: "How could smoke, coming from torment, ascending for ever and ever NOT prove that the torment never ends?"
So you have a problem with residual smoke going up for ever and ever, but don't have a problem with someone burning and giving off smoke for ever and ever and never being consumed.
re: "How could smoke, coming from torment, ascending for ever and ever NOT prove that the torment never ends?"
So you have a problem with residual smoke going up for ever and ever, but don't have a problem with someone burning and giving off smoke for ever and ever and never being consumed.
Derf
Well-known member
A moral problem or a technical problem?
If you have a moral problem with someone burning forever and ever and never being consumed, I can understand that, although we need to be careful to get our morals from some place that is not affected by our own emotions--like the bible.
If it's a technical problem with something never getting consumed, then you have the same problem whether it's a person that's never consumed or some kind of residue that's never consumed. Does it really matter (technically) whether it's a person or some residual of a person that's never consumed? The only way we understand "burning" is that something is consumed, and once it's consumed, the burning stops--no more fuel.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Smoke screens........
Smoke screens........
It's symbolic, metaphorical. Quibbling over terms does nothing to justify or explain how a God who is Love could inflict and maintain eternal punishment upon his creatures TO NO END. It's a contradiction and absurdity.
ECT (exposed)
~*~*~
Below is from a 'conditional immortality' view (SDA)
Smoke screens........
It's symbolic, metaphorical. Quibbling over terms does nothing to justify or explain how a God who is Love could inflict and maintain eternal punishment upon his creatures TO NO END. It's a contradiction and absurdity.
ECT (exposed)
~*~*~
Below is from a 'conditional immortality' view (SDA)
| The truth on Hell | |
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
perhaps God is more than Love
Derf
Well-known member
I suppose you're right--quibbling over the bible isn't worth the trouble if we are willing to reject what it says anyway.
But if we see the bible as authoritative and presenting God's truth, a little quibbling is probably worth it, don't you think, if it helps us to figure out what God really means to say to us.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
The bible does not contain all knowledge
The bible does not contain all knowledge
One problem is limiting the discussion to only a biblical context, while other religious philosophical schools have their teachings on the subject as well offering insights into the greater picture and destiny of souls.
I've offered my insights/questions here and elsewhere if interested...and still researching.
There is perfect justice and mercy in the universe, so divine providence governs all fairly, by love's mandate and wisdom's way.
The bible presents life or death for souls to choose.....These are the ultimatums.
I dont limit my studies and research to the Bible...hence my eclectic universal approach to the soul and it's destiny.
The bible does not contain all knowledge
One problem is limiting the discussion to only a biblical context, while other religious philosophical schools have their teachings on the subject as well offering insights into the greater picture and destiny of souls.
I've offered my insights/questions here and elsewhere if interested...and still researching.
There is perfect justice and mercy in the universe, so divine providence governs all fairly, by love's mandate and wisdom's way.
The bible presents life or death for souls to choose.....These are the ultimatums.
I dont limit my studies and research to the Bible...hence my eclectic universal approach to the soul and it's destiny.
Of course it is biblical. There is a lake of fire where the ungodly will be tormented day and night forever.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
God is Love.
That must be understood/realized first.
'God' is more, but his divine character, nature and will...are ever of one constitution, indivisible.
Love cannot act in a way contrary to its own will or nature.
Ah, but God is also Just is He not. And will he not have to exercise that justice.
Derf
Well-known member
I presume then that all of those other sources you're talking about are in perfect agreement with each other?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yes, just as the Executioner is God's Minister, when he puts criminals to death.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Of course not in every detail and particular, but some commonalities.
Do all religious sects and denominations who use the Bible as their ''standard' agree on the subject of hell, soteriology and eschatology?
You loose.
Revelation 20:10-15New King James Version (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.