The Trinity

The Trinity


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JudgeRightly

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You really don't mean that, right?
Yes. You're very sad if you think you're the judge of my fiancee's hair, even though you've never seen her, let alone her hair.

Who are you to say my fiancee's hair is long or short?
You used your finance's short hair as proof against me? lol
My fiancee's hair is long. I would know, because she's my fiancee, thank you very much.

Now, GT, please, what is "Noah's nakedness"?
 

God's Truth

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Yes. You're very sad if you think you're the judge of my fiancee's hair, even though you've never seen her, let alone her hair.

Who are you to say my fiancee's hair is long or short?

My fiancee's hair is long. I would know, because she's my fiancee, thank you very much.

Now, GT, please, what is "Noah's nakedness"?

My fiancee's long hair does not cover her body nor torso. It covers her shoulders, and her neckline, but not her chest.

And there are many women who's hair falls naturally behind their backs, that does not come to the front.

GT, You're trying to add to the verse that a woman's hair covers her body, and it's not there. So please, stop trying to add that.

You described your finance's hair. Your finance's hair is short.
 

JudgeRightly

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You described your finance's hair. Your finance's hair is short.
Says the one who has never seen my fiancee's hair. Please, stop embarrassing yourself, and stop talking about my fiancee as if you know her.

GT, please answer the question:

What is "Noah's nakedness"?
 

God's Truth

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Why? Because you're afraid to admit that I was right when I said above that a man is a woman's covering?

Because you can't admit that by NATURE long hair is a covering for the body, and other reasons.

According to your reasoning, or lack of it, men should not have ANY hair on their head because it covers their head.
 

JudgeRightly

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Because you can't admit that by NATURE long hair is a covering for the body, and other reasons.

According to your reasoning, or lace of it, men should not have ANY hair on their head because it covers their head.
GT, the passage does not say a woman's hair is a covering for her body, it says, if you would stop ripping the verses out of their context, that her hair is a covering for her HEAD.

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.For man is not from woman, but woman from man.Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. - 1 Corinthians 11:3-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians11:3-15&version=NKJV
 

God's Truth

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GT, the passage does not say a woman's hair is a covering for her body, it says, if you would stop ripping the verses out of their context, that her hair is a covering for her HEAD.

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.For man is not from woman, but woman from man.Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. - 1 Corinthians 11:3-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians11:3-15&version=NKJV

This is too simple. If you can't see something so simple then I don't care to debate with you about it.
 

Rosenritter

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Nothing there shows me that Jesus is the father, I don't see how you can think that, in the Bible they are clearly separate. Theres God the father, Christ Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit!

We were reading Philippians 2 tonight in our house meeting, and clearly Jesus is separate from the father.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And there are so many verses like this, that clearly show that Jesus isn't the father.

Marhig, even that passage you chose there is part of a set that shows equivalence. See Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, and Philippians 2:10 individually and together. It's written inside and out.

Part 1, Isaiah

Isaiah 45:22-23 KJV
(22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Question for Marhig, whom are we told to look to to be saved? When Moses raised the serpent upon the pole, whom did that serpent represent? This was Jesus, as in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." We are told to look upon Jesus and be saved. Jesus was lifted up, and not another. Regardless, remember that the subject of Isaiah 45:23 is God, that "unto me [God] every knee shall bow."

Part 2, Romans

Romans 14:10-12 KJV
(10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
(12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Question for Marhig, to whom do we give account of ourselves? Jesus is the judge of the quick and the dead, and we stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Paul says we thus give account to God. We are judged by Jesus, we are not judged by the Father, yet it says we give account of ourselves to God. And by the way, note that "God" from the Old Testament is here now "saith the Lord." He's quoting Isaiah and he considers "God" and "the Lord" to be the same.

Part 3, Philippians

Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Question for Marhig, did Paul make up something new, or is he quoting that passage in Isaiah again? The same passage that in the Old Testament where "God says unto me every knee shall bow" in Romans Paul interprets it as "the Lord saith unto me every knee shall bow" and in Philippiansthis same Paul understands that this is interchangeable with "unto Jesus every knee shall bow."

Marhig, I don't think Paul was a careless or uneducated writer. Yet he uses "God" and "Lord" and "Jesus" interchangeably when quoting the same Old Testament passage. People understand Jesus as their God because they read these scriptures.


What about Jesus' prayer to the father in John 17? If Jesus was the father, that would mean he prays to himself?

And why not Marhig? In the aforementiond Isaiah 45:23 (and Jeremiah 22:5) God says that he swears by himself. He even refers to himself in the third person in passages like this in Zechariah:

Zechariah 3:2 KJV
(2) And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Even with my limited mortal self I will talk to myself: I think thoughts in my head and come up with answers, I send myself emails or write myself notes as reminders, and I don't have anything as complicated as being God and incarnate in flesh at the same time like God did. Your incredulous question isn't a valid evidence, actual bible statements are valid evidences.


Yet he talked to the father always and he lived by his will and not by his own will, this also shows us that he is not the father.

How does he "live by his will and not by his own will?" Your statement is a contradiction. Regardless, Jesus lived by his Father's will, which is what you would expect if that were his true identity. I have multiple conflicting wills in myself (and Paul states the same in other scripture) yet we yield to our true selves. We are dealing with terms of expression. If Jesus lived by his own will and against his Father's will, then you would have a case saying that Jesus was not God. Not the other way around Marhig.

Even in his prayer to the father before he was crucified Jesus fell on his face and prayed, and said,

O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Jesus lived to please the father, to do his will, and obeyed him he said that without the father he could do nothing, and he said the father is greater than he!

See all the above. If Jesus exercised will contrary to the Father, then he would not be God. If he could do things apart from the Father or against the Father, then he would not be God. And of course the Father is greater than he, just like my hand would defer to my head. They are both me, both ultimately the same person.

Jesus isn't the father, he's the Christ the Holy son of the living God!

Jesus is the living God, which is why he drops the subtle approach entirely by the time we reach the book of Revelation. "I am the beginning and the end" he says. If you don't know the significance of that title, read the book of Isaiah. Word search that phrase, you'll find it.
 

marhig

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Marhig, even that passage you chose there is part of a set that shows equivalence. See Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, and Philippians 2:10 individually and together. It's written inside and out.

Part 1, Isaiah

Isaiah 45:22-23 KJV
(22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Question for Marhig, whom are we told to look to to be saved? When Moses raised the serpent upon the pole, whom did that serpent represent? This was Jesus, as in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." We are told to look upon Jesus and be saved. Jesus was lifted up, and not another. Regardless, remember that the subject of Isaiah 45:23 is God, that "unto me [God] every knee shall bow."

Part 2, Romans

Romans 14:10-12 KJV
(10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
(12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Question for Marhig, to whom do we give account of ourselves? Jesus is the judge of the quick and the dead, and we stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Paul says we thus give account to God. We are judged by Jesus, we are not judged by the Father, yet it says we give account of ourselves to God. And by the way, note that "God" from the Old Testament is here now "saith the Lord." He's quoting Isaiah and he considers "God" and "the Lord" to be the same.

Part 3, Philippians

Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Question for Marhig, did Paul make up something new, or is he quoting that passage in Isaiah again? The same passage that in the Old Testament where "God says unto me every knee shall bow" in Romans Paul interprets it as "the Lord saith unto me every knee shall bow" and in Philippiansthis same Paul understands that this is interchangeable with "unto Jesus every knee shall bow."

Marhig, I don't think Paul was a careless or uneducated writer. Yet he uses "God" and "Lord" and "Jesus" interchangeably when quoting the same Old Testament passage. People understand Jesus as their God because they read these scriptures.




And why not Marhig? In the aforementiond Isaiah 45:23 (and Jeremiah 22:5) God says that he swears by himself. He even refers to himself in the third person in passages like this in Zechariah:

Zechariah 3:2 KJV
(2) And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Even with my limited mortal self I will talk to myself: I think thoughts in my head and come up with answers, I send myself emails or write myself notes as reminders, and I don't have anything as complicated as being God and incarnate in flesh at the same time like God did. Your incredulous question isn't a valid evidence, actual bible statements are valid evidences.




How does he "live by his will and not by his own will?" Your statement is a contradiction. Regardless, Jesus lived by his Father's will, which is what you would expect if that were his true identity. I have multiple conflicting wills in myself (and Paul states the same in other scripture) yet we yield to our true selves. We are dealing with terms of expression. If Jesus lived by his own will and against his Father's will, then you would have a case saying that Jesus was not God. Not the other way around Marhig.



See all the above. If Jesus exercised will contrary to the Father, then he would not be God. If he could do things apart from the Father or against the Father, then he would not be God. And of course the Father is greater than he, just like my hand would defer to my head. They are both me, both ultimately the same person.



Jesus is the living God, which is why he drops the subtle approach entirely by the time we reach the book of Revelation. "I am the beginning and the end" he says. If you don't know the significance of that title, read the book of Isaiah. Word search that phrase, you'll find it.
Well here's a not so subtle approach to show that Jesus isn't God and the he had a God himself!

Revelation 3, after he has left this flesh and is back with the father!

Revelation 3

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Also his God is the only true God, and Jesus says the he is the father

John 17:3 kjv

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Paul knows that one God is the father .

B]And that is none other God but one.[/b] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)

And Paul makes it clear here in Ephesians 1 who the God and father of our lord Jesus Christ

Ephesians 1

AndGrace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

And here below in John 8 Jesus says that there are two, he and his father

John 8:15

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Below, Jesus clearly states that the father is not only Mary's God and father, but his also

Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”(John 20:17 KJV)

And Paul prays for them to be given the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ who is the father of glory!

Ephesians 1

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him

And there's this

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:6 KJV)

And there are 3, all separate

Ephesians 4

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And there's this

2 Corinthians 13

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort.

And finally for now, although I've got plenty more verses, :)

There's this

For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)

Now, it's between you and God what you believe, I personally don't believe that Jesus is God or that he is the father. But what I believe is wrong to do, is the way people judge others, in that people who believe as I do are judged as non believers, that they are unsaved heathen, when nowhere in the Bible are we told that we must believe in the trinity to be saved. I don't judge anyone in this way, only God knows our hearts, and my hope is for all to be in heaven. I love God and Christ from the depths of my heart, and one day, many of us could be with God together, Paul thought he was right, when he persecuted God's people, but once his eyes were opened he knew how wrong it was.

It's better for us to love God with our all, and show our love for him by living it out and baring witness to the truth and to care for, and have hope for everyone, and leave God to be the judge of us all. As only he is the righteous judge.
 

God's Truth

New member
And what if you are a woman whose hair naturally curls so it cannot be long? Not everyone has the Asian or European hair by nature.

You are missing the point of the argument.

However, since you miss it, why should we go on and speak more about it?

Would you like to first admit that Paul was saying by nature a woman's hair is long and is her covering?

Since I don't think your ego will let you, as you said to me before, I will tell you anyway, lol

Paul spoke of what was HIS CULTURAL WAYS.

1 Corinthians 11:16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.


We know that by nature African people don't have hair that naturally grows long, and we also know that the women usually did not cover their chests.

Again, Paul was speaking about what is natural for his culture and people.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
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You are missing the point of the argument.

However, since you miss it, why should we go on and speak more about it?

Would you like to first admit that Paul was saying by nature a woman's hair is long and is her covering?

Since I don't think your ego will let you, as you said to me before, I will tell you anyway, lol

Paul spoke of what was HIS CULTURAL WAYS.

1 Corinthians 11:16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.


We know that by nature African people don't have hair that naturally grows long, and we also know that the women usually did not cover their chests.

Again, Paul was speaking about what is natural for his culture and people.

Let's get back on topic and off the hair.

God is three in person one in essence.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Well here's a not so subtle approach to show that Jesus isn't God and the he had a God himself!

Your approach seems to be to seize on indirect figures of speech and reference.

1) Jesus is allowed, permitted, and understood to speak from more than point of reference
2) It should go without saying that God is the God of God. Such reference does not prove your point.
3) Acknowledging "One True God" does not prevent Jesus as God. This is not "two different Gods" but that Jesus is that God.
4) Jesus did not say that he and the Father were two separate people or individuals. You've missed the meaning of the response.
Spoiler
Revelation 3, after he has left this flesh and is back with the father!

Revelation 3

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Also his God is the only true God, and Jesus says the he is the father

John 17:3 kjv

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Paul knows that one God is the father .

B]And that is none other God but one.[/b] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)

And Paul makes it clear here in Ephesians 1 who the God and father of our lord Jesus Christ

Ephesians 1

AndGrace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

And here below in John 8 Jesus says that there are two, he and his father

John 8:15

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Below, Jesus clearly states that the father is not only Mary's God and father, but his also

Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”(John 20:17 KJV)

And Paul prays for them to be given the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ who is the father of glory!

Ephesians 1

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him

And there's this

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:6 KJV)

And there are 3, all separate

Ephesians 4

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And there's this

2 Corinthians 13

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort.

What you haven't done in any of this is attempt to answer the multitude of places (already provided) where Jesus is directly called and identified as that One True God.

And finally for now, although I've got plenty more verses, :)

There's this

For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)

I wish you'd consider your passages more critically. If you attempt to use 1 Timothy 2:5 to say that Jesus cannot be God because he is the mediator, then by the same measure he also cannot be a man because he is the mediator. But look even closer, and you'll see why said passage doesn't lend you support at all:

For there is one God .... (who?)
+ and one mediator between God and man ...(who?)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
= the man Christ Jesus (that's who)

For a passage to constitute a proof, it can't be such that it can also be easily read to contradict your claim. If we want to know who this one God is, and who this one mediator is, we are told by the disciple John and John the Baptist:

John 1:1 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:10 KJV
(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Unless you try to answer points like these, you're still operating under self-imposed blinders. These aren't obscure passages, they are clear and plainly written. Throwing up distractions while ignoring numerous other passages isn't actual truth.

Now, it's between you and God what you believe, I personally don't believe that Jesus is God or that he is the father. But what I believe is wrong to do, is the way people judge others, in that people who believe as I do are judged as non believers, that they are unsaved heathen, when nowhere in the Bible are we told that we must believe in the trinity to be saved.

* Have I judged you as a non-believer?
* Have I judged you as an unsaved heathen?
* Have I said anywhere that one must believe in a trinity to be saved?

You have a good heart. I believe your understanding may not be perfect, but God judges our heart.

I don't judge anyone in this way, only God knows our hearts, and my hope is for all to be in heaven. I love God and Christ from the depths of my heart, and one day, many of us could be with God together, Paul thought he was right, when he persecuted God's people, but once his eyes were opened he knew how wrong it was.

... or is it that Jesus judges our heart? Didn't he say that he is the judge of all? Couldn't resist...

Marhig, why do you love God? Why should he be loved? Try to explain.
Marhig, why do you love Christ? Why should he be loved? Try to explain.
Spoiler

1 John 3:16 KJV
(16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1 John 4:19 KJV
(19) We love him, because he first loved us.

It's better for us to love God with our all, and show our love for him by living it out and baring witness to the truth and to care for, and have hope for everyone, and leave God to be the judge of us all. As only he is the righteous judge.

As you said, God is the judge of all.

John 5:22 KJV
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:26-27 KJV
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

If I were to apply the same reasoning you used in those passages (that I spoiler-tagged) above, by the same measure we would have proof that the Father was not God. It's not one or the other Marhig. It's the different ways we perceive and relate to our God.

And this is why it makes a difference. God isn't a distant foreign deity in a heaven far far away. He is real, and he is personal, and he wants you and I and everyone to know who he is. That's why he came unto his own. He who created the worlds was made flesh, and his own knew him not. He came as the Son so that you could know him.

I think you do love God, which is why it's a little sad that you haven't quite realized who he was. When you finally realize this it's not going to tear you down, it's going to lift you up. You don't have to choose between loving one more than the other, you don't have to choose between two masters, you don't have to wonder why Jesus loved you more than God. There's no conflict, never has been, never will be.

Hereby we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us...

John 15:12-13 KJV
(12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Who gets to give commandments?
 

Rosenritter

New member
You are missing the point of the argument.

However, since you miss it, why should we go on and speak more about it?

Would you like to first admit that Paul was saying by nature a woman's hair is long and is her covering?

Since I don't think your ego will let you, as you said to me before, I will tell you anyway, lol

Paul spoke of what was HIS CULTURAL WAYS.

1 Corinthians 11:16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.


We know that by nature African people don't have hair that naturally grows long, and we also know that the women usually did not cover their chests.

Again, Paul was speaking about what is natural for his culture and people.

Are you still arguing that women should have long hair to cover their bodies because otherwise it sexually tempts the angels? Or did you amend that? I'm not sure where you are anymore.
 
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