ECT WHY GENTILES ARE IN THE BODY ??

glorydaz · Mar 21, 2018

DAN P said:
Hi and why do you say that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is taking about the B O C ??

And I just wrote what the KJV translated , it as world and is the Greek word AION and is a transliterated Greek word with many meaning , like : FOREVER , UNBROKEN AGE , AGE , and many more and translated EVER over 71 times !!

This is why I am not a KJV-ONLY BELIEVER !!

If you know this , and dispensation is mentioned in 1 Cor 9:17 , and in Eph 3:2 and 9 and in Col 1:25 and in 1 Tim 1:4 and all others are called AGES !!

dan p

While you're on the subject of ages, Dan, would you mind telling me if this is referring to a dispensation?

2 Corinthians 4:4 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;

Interplanner · Mar 22, 2018

glorydaz said:
While you're on the subject of ages, Dan, would you mind telling me if this is referring to a dispensation?

2 Corinthians 4:4 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;

'This age' in Paul's usage often means the Judaism he grew up in. It also can mean the whole realm of this world all outside of the new earth, heaven, Jerusalem, etc.

genuineoriginal · Mar 22, 2018

DAN P said:
Hi and you must have a corrupted version , as Luke 16:1 uses the Greek word OIKONOMOS / STEWARD and it means MANAGER , not DISPENSATION !!

The whole CONTEXT of Luke has to with MANAGING and that you can LOSE your MANAGER SHIP or as you say , we can also lose our dispensation , that is wrong !!

dan p

You didn't even look at the highlighted words?
"Dispensation" was an acceptable translation of OIKONOMIA when the KJV was written, but after the Plymouth Brethren introduced "Dispensationalism" the word "Dispensation" no longer conveys the same meaning that the Greek word has.

DAN P · Mar 22, 2018

genuineoriginal said:
You didn't even look at the highlighted words?
"Dispensation" was an acceptable translation of OIKONOMIA when the KJV was written, but after the Plymouth Brethren introduced "Dispensationalism" the word "Dispensation" no longer conveys the same meaning that the Greek word has.

Hi and the original Greek should reign BUT they all need to be checked for accuracy !!

I did address AGE in post #41 !!

dan p

turbosixx · Mar 23, 2018

Right Divider said:
Did you have a point?

I do. You said Jesus didn't establish the new covenant. If that is the case, then under what covenant is Peter offering the forgiveness of sins on Pentecost?

turbosixx · Mar 23, 2018

Right Divider said:
AND the universal mediator between God and men

Could you please explain this a little more please.

Right Divider · Mar 23, 2018

turbosixx said:
I do. You said Jesus didn't establish the new covenant. If that is the case, then under what covenant is Peter offering the forgiveness of sins on Pentecost?

The Lord can forgive sins anytime that He wants. Why are you so fixated on covenants and water ceremonies?

Matt 9:2 (AKJV/PCE)

(9:2) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Peter spoke of a future salvation for His people, Israel:

1Pet 1:5 (AKJV/PCE)

(1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

As did Paul:

Rom 11:25-27 (AKJV/PCE)

(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

turbosixx · Mar 23, 2018

Right Divider said:
Peter spoke of a future salvation for His people, Israel:

1Pet 1:5 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Before Jesus' DBR, they were sent out but didn't save anyone. On Pentecost 3,000 were saved, what changed?

Right Divider · Mar 23, 2018

turbosixx said:
Could you please explain this a little more please.

Only if you use a question mark. :french:

You need to come to the realization that God works in different ways with different people at different time. That is crystal clear throughout the Bible.

In the current dispensation, God is saving everyone without distinction purely by His grace. But at other times, He called out one special people for His plans for the earth. That is the nation of Israel. God gave them a system of laws and a priesthood, etc. He did not give those same things to the body of Christ which was a mystery hidden until He revealed it to and through Paul.

God has guaranteed Israel their place and the Bible says that He will restore them to that place in the future.

Rom 11:25-27 (AKJV/PCE)

(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Their (Israel) blindness is only "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in".

Israel was to be God's mediators to the Gentiles, that's what a priest does... mediate.

In the present dispensation there is ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Right Divider · Mar 23, 2018

turbosixx said:
Before Jesus' DBR, they were sent out but didn't save anyone. On Pentecost 3,000 were saved, what changed?

You don't think that anyone was saved until Pentecost?

What kind of "saved"?

Acts 2:47 (AKJV/PCE)

(2:47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Why does the Bible use the FUTURE tense there?

It's the SAME reason that Peter says this:

1Pet 1:5 (AKJV/PCE)

(1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

turbosixx · Mar 23, 2018

Right Divider said:
God has guaranteed Israel their place and the Bible says that He will restore them to that place in the future.

Rom 11:25-27 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

In this passage it says they will be "grafted back into" their own tree that the Gentiles are in.
24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Which is the church.

turbosixx · Mar 23, 2018

Right Divider said:
You don't think that anyone was saved until Pentecost?

I would be glad to consider where their preaching saved anyone, you have a passage in mind?

Right Divider said:
What kind of "saved"?

You tell me what it is if it's not salvation. He is offering them the forgiveness of sins.

Right Divider said:
Acts 2:47 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Why does the Bible use the FUTURE tense there?

I don't believe it's future tense. The Greek word used there is:
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Short Definition: I save, heal
Definition: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

Paul uses the same Greek word here:
1 Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

I believe the phrase is separating those who were saved from those who were not.
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Right Divider · Mar 23, 2018

turbosixx said:
In this passage it says they will be "grafted back into" their own tree that the Gentiles are in.
24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Which is the church.

The olive tree is not salvation nor is it Israel.

turbosixx · Mar 23, 2018

Right Divider said:
The olive tree is not salvation nor is it Israel.

To accept that statement, I will need more explanation. If the olive tree is not salvation, then why were the gentiles grafted in?

Right Divider · Mar 23, 2018

turbosixx said:
I would be glad to consider where their preaching saved anyone, you have a passage in mind?

You tell me what it is if it's not salvation. He is offering them the forgiveness of sins.

Do you think that the only kind of salvation is eternal life?

Did you not see that one man's sins were forgiven before Pentecost?

Matt 9:2 (AKJV/PCE)

(9:2) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

turbosixx said:
I don't believe it's future tense. The Greek word used there is:
sózó: to save
Original Word: σῴζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sózó
Phonetic Spelling: (sode'-zo)
Short Definition: I save, heal
Definition: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

Paul uses the same Greek word here:
1 Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

I believe the phrase is separating those who were saved from those who were not.
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

If you believe so strongly in Acts 2, which aren't you living in a commune? Where are the "signs and wonders" today? Are you daily in the temple?

Why does Peter continue to speak of their sins being blotted out as yet future?

Acts 3:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)

(3:19) ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (3:20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Clearly, Peter is constantly pointing to the future for their sins to be forgiven and their salvation in the kingdom.

Right Divider · Mar 23, 2018

turbosixx said:
To accept that statement, I will need more explanation. If the olive tree is not salvation, then why were the gentiles grafted in?

The olive tree is service to God.

In the dispensation of the grace of God, salvation is offered as a free gift without Israel, without a covenant, without anything but faith in Christ and what He did on the cross.

Eph 2:11-13 (AKJV/PCE)

(2:11) Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (2:12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (2:13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

BUT NOW.... made nigh by the BLOOD of Christ.... just that simple.

turbosixx · Mar 23, 2018

Right Divider said:
Do you think that the only kind of salvation is eternal life?

Did you not see that one man's sins were forgiven before Pentecost?

Matt 9:2 (AKJV/PCE)
(9:2) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

This is Jesus forgiving sins personally and not any preaching by Jesus or the 12/70. The apostles proclaimed the forgiveness of sins on Pentecost and 3,000 were saved. What changed?

Right Divider said:
If you believe so strongly in Acts 2, which aren't you living in a commune? Where are the "signs and wonders" today? Are you daily in the temple?

Because I understand those things don't apply.

Right Divider said:
Why does Peter continue to speak of their sins being blotted out as yet future?

Acts 3:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:19) ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (3:20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Clearly, Peter is constantly pointing to the future for their sins to be forgiven and their salvation in the kingdom.

The future of them being converted. What does he mean by "be converted"?

turbosixx · Mar 23, 2018

Right Divider said:
The olive tree is service to God.

He's not talking about service but salvation.
Rom. 11:14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Right Divider said:
BUT NOW.... made nigh by the BLOOD of Christ.... just that simple.

I agree it's his blood.
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Heb. 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

Not future but now.

Right Divider · Mar 23, 2018

turbosixx said:
This is Jesus forgiving sins personally and not any preaching by Jesus or the 12/70. The apostles proclaimed the forgiveness of sins on Pentecost and 3,000 were saved. What changed?

So nobody got "saved" by the twelve preaching the gospel of the kingdom?

Were they just really bad at preaching the "one true gospel"?

turbosixx said:
Because I understand those things don't apply.

Why not?

turbosixx said:
The future of them being converted. What does he mean by "be converted"?

Why are you so evasive?

What that conversion means is completely IRRELEVANT to the TIME in which the sins will be blotted out.

Acts 3:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)

(3:19) ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (3:20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

THAT your sins MAY be blotted out WHEN the times of refreshing SHALL COME.

Right Divider · Mar 23, 2018

turbosixx said:
He's not talking about service but salvation.
Rom. 11:14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Life from the dead is talking about ISRAEL.

The olive tree is NOT Israel NOR salvation.

Rom 11:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)

(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

THEY and THEM is ISRAEL. THEIR fullness is the restoration of ISRAEL.

turbosixx said:
I agree it's his blood.
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Heb. 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

Not future but now.

Once AGAIN, the blood does NOT have to serve a SINGLE purpose but can have TWO purposes.

The body of Christ is not Israel.

ECT WHY GENTILES ARE IN THE BODY ??

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