What is "Faith alone ?"

Lon said:

Agree 100% Why then did you say this: My stance would be your stance wouldn't it? Maybe you didn't mean to be as overtly challenging and I apologize if I have not made my agreement clear. I agree with your statement: "It is Him. It has to be Him." In Him -Lon

I edited some of my previous comment. I think there is a need for further dialogue to make things clear. Trusting in Him AND is Words, AND His work is all the same thing. He did something. He said something. We trust in Him (1) as well as what He said(2) AND did(3).

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We can't trust in His Word until we surrender our lives to Him. Remember when we start the journey , we don't have the Spirit of Christ yet , so Christ and His Word are not ours yet. Rom 8:9

To start the relationship we surrender our lives to Him , "we trust in Him" to accept the surrendered life. We make decisions that support the fact we have surrendered our life to Him. We trust that He will accept , maintain , leed , complete His work in us.

Gods Word becomes part of the relationship once He seals His Spirit in us , and that happens further down the process , not at the start like most think.

So in my perspective i would be going from a to z , you would be going from z to a .

Ok Lon , you've been really nice to discuss Faith with here. I'm so used to being shut down and attacked over my understanding of faith i may have been over challenging to you , i apologize for that. I've been studying Gods Word at a Stanford university level for 30 years , and i'm having all the experiences told in Gods Word to back it up . I would love to start over from the beginning with you on this thread and talk about Faith . Let me present Faith from a different perspective to you and see where it goes.

I don't sit at my computer continually. I'll make a post and come back to see the reply in an hour or so. So let me ask you some questions about what Faith is if your okay with that?

We agree with the Greek dictionary that there are two words in the NT for Faith , the Noun pistis , and the verb pisteuo.

pistis would be a person place or thing.

pisteuo would be an act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidense.

Alright my question : Through out each day we fulfill thousands of acts of pisteuo or what i call faithing.
Do you understand what i'm saying about fulfilling thousands of of faithing each day ?

Can you give me three examples of acts of faithing.

Faither said:

We can't trust in His Word until we surrender our lives to Him. Remember when we start the journey , we don't have the Spirit of Christ yet , so Christ and His Word are not ours yet. Rom 8:9

To start the relationship we surrender our lives to Him , "we trust in Him" to accept the surrendered life. We make decisions that support the fact we have surrendered our life to Him. We trust that He will accept , maintain , leed , complete His work in us.

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It depends whether you are a synergist or monergist as to which answer you take. I 'yet' think we are enabled to do everything in regards to salvation. Everything, everything EVERYTHING is on loan to us. What I mean is, even the thoughts I have of self, are from Him. My little finger typing as I chat with you? From Him. I have literally nothing that isn't from Him. There is no 'my part' in the grand scheme of things.

For me, a major theology paradigm and theology changer was this: Do I have a sense of self as a gift of individuality from God? Or is it the full result of the Fall? Or perhaps some combination? I believe this: What ever answer we settle on, it GREATLY influences the rest of our theology. The crisis that started me on this were these scriptures: Luke 9:23 (it is telling me to 'deny' my very self) Galatians 5:24 then 1 Corinthians 4:7 John 15:5 Colossians 1:16-18

Faither said:

Gods Word becomes part of the relationship once He seals His Spirit in us , and that happens further down the process , not at the start like most think.

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It is different with all of our paradigms. The Reformed believe we are 'monergistically' (God alone) saved and that everything 'we' do is prompted by Him and part of His work. Others, synergists, of which you seem to be also, have different ordering of how we are saved. Paul lays it out this way:

Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

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If you continued: How would he/she preach unless there was something to preach about? etc. Paul, then, gives a bit of order to us concerning new birth.

Faither said:

So in my perspective i would be going from a to z , you would be going from z to a .

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I see this too. I don't think the 'order' keeps things from happening. We can remember events wrongly (and often do). The fact that it happened and we were there, is not in dispute. To me, saved is saved. All who call upon the name of the Lord are saved.

Faither said:

Ok Lon , you've been really nice to discuss Faith with here. I'm so used to being shut down and attacked over my understanding of faith i may have been over challenging to you , i apologize for that. I've been studying Gods Word at a Stanford university level for 30 years , and i'm having all the experiences told in Gods Word to back it up . I would love to start over from the beginning with you on this thread and talk about Faith . Let me present Faith from a different perspective to you and see where it goes.

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Nothing gracious ever seems gracious during these kinds of exchanges, but for whatever help: There is no need of forgiveness. I find I meet the tenor of posts and then need to adjust them if need be. I'm glad we are off on a good foot here in discussion. In Him -Lon

Faither said:

I don't sit at my computer continually. I'll make a post and come back to see the reply in an hour or so. So let me ask you some questions about what Faith is if your okay with that?

We agree with the Greek dictionary that there are two words in the NT for Faith , the Noun pistis , and the verb pisteuo.

pistis would be a person place or thing.

pisteuo would be an act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidense.

Alright my question : Through out each day we fulfill thousands of acts of pisteuo or what i call faithing.
Do you understand what i'm saying about fulfilling thousands of of faithing each day ?

Can you give me three examples of acts of faithing.

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1) I think it will take you awhile to describe what you mean because for me, especially in regard to Faith, it is my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to save me. So, while I see your distinction, for me, there is the placement of being in Christ, which I 'trust' (faith) in. Is it daily? Sort of. To me, it is a once-for-all and all His work. That I walk in Him, is part of being 'in Him." He places in us His Spirit.
2) Maybe this will help: There was a time in my life, where daily I fretted and worked at 'faith' in the sense that I was insecure and always trying to please Him. Something happened when I realized 'my' maintenance wasn't doing a thing that He hadn't already done for me, for us. It was a 'realization' that I was already there, by "His" work. David asked where he could go from God's presence. He then listed a few places and no matter where he listed, God was already there. I came to a realization with David and Paul: "If God is for me, who can be against me?" So, for me, the faith you are talking about, I walk in completely. It might seem lazy, but it isn't that. It isn't being irresponsible (well sort of). It is rather realizing He is responsible and I need to actually exercise that faith you are talking about and trust Him constantly. Because I know He is capable, more so, that I am not, I've learned to trust. Between Mary and Martha, Mary chose the better thing and the Lord Jesus Christ said it would not be taken from her. I thought about that: I'm convinced if Martha sat down, the things she was worried about were either not important OR they would get done. For us, it seems like we are being presumptuous, but I don't think when we both love, and fully need grace, that we can presume upon the Lord Jesus Christ. We simply realize what things we can and cannot do. I can be polite to another and try to help them see my Lord Jesus Christ. I cannot do maintenance on my salvation. Perhaps in this, there is an illustration of what you mean by 'faithing' every day. If not, perhaps it will give impetuous for further explanation on your repost. In Him -Lon

Lon said:

It depends whether you are a synergist or monergist as to which answer you take. I 'yet' think we are enabled to do everything in regards to salvation. Everything, everything EVERYTHING is on loan to us. What I mean is, even the thoughts I have of self, are from Him. My little finger typing as I chat with you? From Him. I have literally nothing that isn't from Him. There is no 'my part' in the grand scheme of things.

For me, a major theology paradigm and theology changer was this: Do I have a sense of self as a gift of individuality from God? Or is it the full result of the Fall? Or perhaps some combination? I believe this: What ever answer we settle on, it GREATLY influences the rest of our theology. The crisis that started me on this were these scriptures: Luke 9:23 (it is telling me to 'deny' my very self) Galatians 5:24 then 1 Corinthians 4:7 John 15:5 Colossians 1:16-18

It is different with all of our paradigms. The Reformed believe we are 'monergistically' (God alone) saved and that everything 'we' do is prompted by Him and part of His work. Others, synergists, of which you seem to be also, have different ordering of how we are saved. Paul lays it out this way:
If you continued: How would he/she preach unless there was something to preach about? etc. Paul, then, gives a bit of order to us concerning new birth.


I see this too. I don't think the 'order' keeps things from happening. We can remember events wrongly (and often do). The fact that it happened and we were there, is not in dispute. To me, saved is saved. All who call upon the name of the Lord are saved.


Nothing gracious ever seems gracious during these kinds of exchanges, but for whatever help: There is no need of forgiveness. I find I meet the tenor of posts and then need to adjust them if need be. I'm glad we are off on a good foot here in discussion. In Him -Lon


1) I think it will take you awhile to describe what you mean because for me, especially in regard to Faith, it is my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to save me. So, while I see your distinction, for me, there is the placement of being in Christ, which I 'trust' (faith) in. Is it daily? Sort of. To me, it is a once-for-all and all His work. That I walk in Him, is part of being 'in Him." He places in us His Spirit.
2) Maybe this will help: There was a time in my life, where daily I fretted and worked at 'faith' in the sense that I was insecure and always trying to please Him. Something happened when I realized 'my' maintenance wasn't doing a thing that He hadn't already done for me, for us. It was a 'realization' that I was already there, by "His" work. David asked where he could go from God's presence. He then listed a few places and no matter where he listed, God was already there. I came to a realization with David and Paul: "If God is for me, who can be against me?" So, for me, the faith you are talking about, I walk in completely. It might seem lazy, but it isn't that. It isn't being irresponsible (well sort of). It is rather realizing He is responsible and I need to actually exercise that faith you are talking about and trust Him constantly. Because I know He is capable, more so, that I am not, I've learned to trust. Between Mary and Martha, Mary chose the better thing and the Lord Jesus Christ said it would not be taken from her. I thought about that: I'm convinced if Martha sat down, the things she was worried about were either not important OR they would get done. For us, it seems like we are being presumptuous, but I don't think when we both love, and fully need grace, that we can presume upon the Lord Jesus Christ. We simply realize what things we can and cannot do. I can be polite to another and try to help them see my Lord Jesus Christ. I cannot do maintenance on my salvation. Perhaps in this, there is an illustration of what you mean by 'faithing' every day. If not, perhaps it will give impetuous for further explanation on your repost. In Him -Lon

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Ok Lon, your kind of proving my point for me. The Faithing or what we would call Faith that i'm referring to doesn't have anything to do with God. We as human beings fulfill or perform so to speak acts of Faith all day every day. I'm not talking about any Faith towards God here.

Example : I get out of bed in the morning . Did i check my legs to see if they worked correctly before i stood up on them ? No , i performed an act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidense . In detail , i acted by standing on my legs , based upon the belief that they would hold me up , and it was sustained by the confidence (trust) to perform the action of placing all my weight on them . This is one example of the thousands of acts of Faith we fulfill every ady .

The reason we only understand Faith as being connected to God somehow goes directly to the fact we do not have a verb form of Faith in the English language . The Greek have pisteuo , we have nothing to translate that "extremely" important word . In fact , i could argue there is no word more important in the Scriptures than "pisteuo."

Anyway , here is another example . Did you check tio make sure the air was good to breath before you took your first breath ? No , we took our first breath , an act , based on the belief the air was good , sustained by taking it into our bodies , risking our lives on the fact the air is good .

Did you make sure when you went through that green light today , that the light for the person driving in the opposite direction was red ? No , because you performed an act , based upon the belief that the light for the person driving in the opposite direction is red , and you sustained the act by trusting your life driving through the intersection risking your life on it.

I could go on and on Lon. these are acts of Faith , "faithing" , that we as humans fulfill or perform thousands of times a day. We are creatures of Faith , more exact , we are creatures that faithe.

Is this making any sense before we step into Faith in Christ.

Realize that there is a difference between biblical words and the way others use them(you might, I'm just trying to ensure). For instance I can be 'saved' by a fireman, but Salvation as a doctrine and scripture discussion is different. Similarly, faith as a subject carries different concerns between faith in a chair vs. faith in the Saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ. While I think you are correct, they are often the same thing, there is often enough difference that I think it 'may' be part of the problem with your other TOL discussions. I'm not sure of that, just guessing. For your and my discussion, no problem but I may contrast the difference somewhere in our future conversation. For now and in this thread, I'm simply going along with the discussion with some allusion to the greater theological concern. Sometimes we make things too complicated. I think, simply said, "Faith" is trusting in God to save us. "How completely" is a discussion of how much faith we should actually exercise, and how much we should take up our own responsibilities (if any).

Faither said:

Ok Lon, you're kind of proving my point for me. The Faithing or what we would call Faith that i'm referring to doesn't have anything to do with God. We as human beings fulfill or perform so to speak acts of Faith all day every day. I'm not talking about any Faith towards God here.

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I believe I understand your point.

Faither said:

Example : I get out of bed in the morning . Did i check my legs to see if they worked correctly before i stood up on them ? No , i performed an act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidense . In detail , i acted by standing on my legs , based upon the belief that they would hold me up , and it was sustained by the confidence (trust) to perform the action of placing all my weight on them . This is one example of the thousands of acts of Faith we fulfill every ady .

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I'm not sure if we'd used different words for such. We have an expectation that chairs will hold us up. Do I 'trust' my chair to always hold me up? No, not really. It is an inanimate object. I actually expect that sometime it is going to not work any more. Rather, I trust my ability to sense when I have to fix it before someone gets hurt. One day my legs may give out on me, and I expect that day to happen one day in my 80's or 90's. Until then, there is an 'expectation' that is reasonable, that my legs will work. To me, it is a bit different from faith/trust. Faith/trust is generally reserved for sentient beings who can make a promise and fulfill that promise.

The reason we only understand Faith as being connected to God somehow goes directly to the fact we do not have a verb form of Faith in the English language . The Greek have pisteuo , we have nothing to translate that "extremely" important word . In fact , i could argue there is no word more important in the Scriptures than "pisteuo."

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I think we do. I don't faith in my wife, but I do 'trust' my wife. We understand verbs that convey faith. Faith, as Paul tells us in Hebrews 11:1, is the stuff of things we hope for but don't see. The faith comes, and THEN the result proves if we were wise or not. In some ways, I think it 'can' apply to chairs, but it doesn't have the same meaning when we come to trusting in a sentient being. My saying I trust I will be married to my wife for life, is much different than me saying that I trust my chair to hold me up, by example. Same faith? Sort of, but the inanimate isn't the same kind of 'faith' I put in it. In a nutshell, my life isn't on the line with the chair, it is with our needed trust in God.

Faither said:

Anyway , here is another example . Did you check tio make sure the air was good to breath before you took your first breath ? No , we took our first breath , an act , based on the belief the air was good , sustained by taking it into our bodies , risking our lives on the fact the air is good .

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On this one, we reflexively breathe. It isn't so much faith. There is no 'choice' to do so, in this case. I might be persnickety (and forgive if so) but this isn't a good example of an act of faith for me.

Faither said:

Did you make sure when you went through that green light today , that the light for the person driving in the opposite direction was red ? No , because you performed an act , based upon the belief that the light for the person driving in the opposite direction is red , and you sustained the act by trusting your life driving through the intersection risking your life on it.

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No. I always look both ways, always cover my brake but I've been through defensive/offensive driving as a previous bus driver. I think there is 'expectation' but I don't think even you actually place faith in another driver. You 'expect' them to know and act according to law and good driving, but I'm convinced you don't actually trust them.

Faither said:

I could go on and on Lon. these are acts of Faith , "faithing" , that we as humans fulfill or perform thousands of times a day. We are creatures of Faith , more exact , we are creatures that faithe.

Is this making any sense before we step into Faith in Christ.

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I think it does. In some ways, you are saying we can/should take for granted (trust) the Lord Jesus Christ to cover our needs. In fact, if I have no air, I trust that I am in the Lord Jesus Christ's hands. I will try to find air, but ultimately, my life is a vapor. James 4:13-16 comes to mind.

Faither said:

I sent this to you on accident it was meant for Lon , my apology. I know your Faith is resting on your obedience .

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I am striving be obedient. there is a difference.

Your assessment of my faith is wrong.

Lon said:

Luke 7:50 John 3:6-8,18 John 8:12,31,32, 34-36 Paul gave the Lord Jesus Christ's words. You might as well cut Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John from your bible too. At least you recognize you have to cut the Apostle Paul from your Bible. Even JW's don't do that. It is just you. -Lon

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Jesus' teachings are in the those 4 gospel books.

You "faith only" believers heavily rely on Paul's word.

It is safe to say your Lord is Paul, not Jesus.

Lon said:

Realize that there is a difference between biblical words and the way others use them(you might, I'm just trying to ensure). For instance I can be 'saved' by a fireman, but Salvation as a doctrine and scripture discussion is different. Similarly, faith as a subject carries different concerns between faith in a chair vs. faith in the Saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ. While I think you are correct, they are often the same thing, there is often enough difference that I think it 'may' be part of the problem with your other TOL discussions. I'm not sure of that, just guessing. For your and my discussion, no problem but I may contrast the difference somewhere in our future conversation. For now and in this thread, I'm simply going along with the discussion with some allusion to the greater theological concern. Sometimes we make things too complicated. I think, simply said, "Faith" is trusting in God to save us. "How completely" is a discussion of how much faith we should actually exercise, and how much we should take up our own responsibilities (if any).

I believe I understand your point.

I'm not sure if we'd used different words for such. We have an expectation that chairs will hold us up. Do I 'trust' my chair to always hold me up? No, not really. It is an inanimate object. I actually expect that sometime it is going to not work any more. Rather, I trust my ability to sense when I have to fix it before someone gets hurt. One day my legs may give out on me, and I expect that day to happen one day in my 80's or 90's. Until then, there is an 'expectation' that is reasonable, that my legs will work. To me, it is a bit different from faith/trust. Faith/trust is generally reserved for sentient beings who can make a promise and fulfill that promise.

I think we do. I don't faith in my wife, but I do 'trust' my wife. We understand verbs that convey faith. Faith, as Paul tells us in Hebrews 11:1, is the stuff of things we hope for but don't see. The faith comes, and THEN the result proves if we were wise or not. In some ways, I think it 'can' apply to chairs, but it doesn't have the same meaning when we come to trusting in a sentient being. My saying I trust I will be married to my wife for life, is much different than me saying that I trust my chair to hold me up, by example. Same faith? Sort of, but the inanimate isn't the same kind of 'faith' I put in it. In a nutshell, my life isn't on the line with the chair, it is with our needed trust in God.

On this one, we reflexively breathe. It isn't so much faith. There is no 'choice' to do so, in this case. I might be persnickety (and forgive if so) but this isn't a good example of an act of faith for me.

No. I always look both ways, always cover my brake but I've been through defensive/offensive driving as a previous bus driver. I think there is 'expectation' but I don't think even you actually place faith in another driver. You 'expect' them to know and act according to law and good driving, but I'm convinced you don't actually trust them.

I think it does. In some ways, you are saying we can/should take for granted (trust) the Lord Jesus Christ to cover our needs. In fact, if I have no air, I trust that I am in the Lord Jesus Christ's hands. I will try to find air, but ultimately, my life is a vapor. James 4:13-16 comes to mind.

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Not making any head way here on any level Lon . I wasn't asking if you agree that those acts are faith in action , that "is" what faith is. Thats not my opinion or theory . Just like the definition of NT Faithing or pisteuo , your not accepting these simple truths , and i understand why. I just don't seem to be able to persuade you.

Let me hold up a mirror for a second Lon by asking a couple of questions.

Do you have the Spirit of Christ in side you and are you in Him ? I will expect you will say yes.

The Word says that if you have the Spirit of Christ , you also have the Mind of Christ. Now if you know where tolook the NT gives examples of what happens and what it is like to be in the state of being "in Christ." But the Word doesn't say anything about what happens and what it is like to have the mind of Christ. You have to have the experience to know that.

So if your understanding of Faith is correct , you should not only have the Spirit of Christ but also the mind of Christ.

What happened when you received the Mind of Chrsit at what is it like to live with it?

This my last tool to persuade you Lon , can you answer those questions ?

Faither said:

Not making any head way here on any level Lon . I wasn't asking if you agree that those acts are faith in action , that "is" what faith is. Thats not my opinion or theory . Just like the definition of NT Faithing or pisteuo , your not accepting these simple truths , and i understand why. I just don't seem to be able to persuade you.

Let me hold up a mirror for a second Lon by asking a couple of questions.

Do you have the Spirit of Christ in side you and are you in Him ? I will expect you will say yes.

The Word says that if you have the Spirit of Christ , you also have the Mind of Christ. Now if you know where tolook the NT gives examples of what happens and what it is like to be in the state of being "in Christ." But the Word doesn't say anything about what happens and what it is like to have the mind of Christ. You have to have the experience to know that.

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Agree. It may be that you need to explain a bit more what is needed for belief about faith. It could be that I even take that 'need' for granted.

Faither said:

So if your understanding of Faith is correct , you should not only have the Spirit of Christ but also the mind of Christ.

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Agree.

Faither said:

What happened when you received the Mind of Chrsit at what is it like to live with it?

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I have a desire to be with my Savior and 'like' my Savior. Sanctification is a process whereby we being changed into His image but Paul says we see through a glass darkly. John says our full realization is not until we see Him face to face 1 John 3:3

Faither said:

This my last tool to persuade you Lon , can you answer those questions ?

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I'm not sure I am not persuaded. It may be 1) something that has another name among Theology terms and you are 'describing' rather than saying it. It could be that you've said it but it was a sentence I missed or needed to read better. I agree there needs to be a meeting of minds for understanding and/or agreement or disagreement. -Lon

Faither said:

Remember were talking about the specific word the ancient writers used to tell us "how" we can become "in Christ" and have a relationship with Him. That word is "pisteuo"

Pisteuo in the Vines : "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender."

Pisteuo in the Strongs : "pisteuo means "not" just to believe."

Lets take the opinions out of it and just stick to the intent behind what the writers were specifically communicating.

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Intellectual learning has little merit in the actual experiencing or timing of divine the revelation that awakens faith in us.

Zeke said:

Intellectual learning has little merit in the actual experiencing or timing of divine the revelation that awakens faith in us.

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LOL , it "is" the experience (that i can't use to persuade you) that somehow makes me look like an intellectual to you and others . I'm a disabled bricklayer . High school educated . When i started surrendering my life to Christ , i could say it was accidental . What has been happening over the last 30 years wasn't about learning so to speak . It was about God showing me in Scripture what He was doing to me.

My path didn't start by experiencing the divine , it had started by a covenant or contract of surrender that someone had presented to me .

What really has little merit , is someone claiming Gods Word when it's "not" theres to claim yet. Simply because they havn't started the relationship with "mandatory" true NT faith and faithing .

The new churchs of today are built on a "no risk faith" or " pseudo faith ".