Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

glorydaz said:

"Jehovah" speaks through the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ

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In a way, yes. Jehovah put HIS words in Christ's mouth... EXACTLY like He promised Israel and Moses that He would;
Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.


.... and Jesus stated that his Father fulfilled HIS promise precisely;

John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

G said:

He is the visible of the invisible.

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He WAS the visible image of his God. Now, Jesus is exactly as "invisible" as his God. SOON, Jesus' God will send Jesus BACK to earth, and then Jesus will be VERY visible ... again..... and more than 1,000 years later, Jehovah HIMSELF will come to dwell on the earth, with HIS immortal sons and daughters .... and the Scriptures promise the righteous will then see HIS face.

G said:

For He came and dwelt among us

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Jesus "came forth" unto Jehovah, and mankind, in Bethlehem.

G said:

before He returned to His former Glory.

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Says no verse ever.

Although, if you pretend to be making a kidnap ransom note .... you could cut individual words out of multiple verses, and create a "Frankenverse" that would say this.

There are NO texts that state Jesus "returned" to heaven. There are MANY that promise Jesus WILL "return" to Earth.

Jesus DID pray, and ask his God to GIVE him the glory ... (RESURRECTION TO ETERNAL LIFE) .... that God planned from before the creation.

John 17:4-5 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Jesus didn't exist yet, but God planned Great Glory for Jesus "before the world was".

And, the glory Jesus was requesting, was different than the glory his God had ALREADY given Jesus.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Dartman said:

Of course, JUST LIKE the believers and God, and Jesus are ALL "one".
Due to roughly 18 centuries of brainwashing, trintarians and oneness somehow think the phrase "one God" is in this text!
It's not.

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Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.

Your question is erroneous. Jesus said the first, and greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, strength and soul. EVERYTIME Jesus commands worship of his God, he is talking about his Father, and our Father

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Jesus says follow me or you are not worthy of me , only true if Jesus is God.

Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

You have the answer right in your quotes. Jesus glorified his God, his God will honor people who obey the commandment to follow, and honor Jesus as God's son, God's Christ, God's appointed King, etc.

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no ,if Jesus is not God then Jesus saying "follow me" "serve me is not honoring God.

Jesus says "follow me" "serve me" because Jesus is God .

Joh 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Joh 21:19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, "Follow me."
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

Mat_4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
Deu 10:20 You shall fear the LORD your God. You shall serve him and hold fast to him, and by his name you shall swear.

Because Jehovah gave Jesus all authority, and all power .... so after Christ's God had anointed Jesus with power, and authority ... Jesus WAS the "lord of the Sabbath". God MADE Jesus "Lord"
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

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only God is lord of the sabbath and Jesus is Lord of the sabbath because Jesus is God.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."
Exo_20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
Deu_6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

You skipped a couple of VERY key verses;

Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

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Moses said "Jehovah said unto me" ,Moses spoke as a man for God
Jesus never said "Jehovah said unto me"

Jesus spoke as God for God
Joh_14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

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Jesus here is saying " his commandment"
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."

Jesus here is saying " my commandments "
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

both verses can only be true if Jesus is God

aikido7 said:

The Jesus of history said “Why do you call me good? Only God is good.”
“Friend, who made me a judge over you?”

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And here is what you get when you cherry pick verses.

First, you have to understand what is being said it the context it's given.
Then, you can discuss it.

Your second (partial) quote...Are you attempting to deceive the reader?


Same with the first quote. Our Lord left them an opening to confess Him as Lord. He did that quite often...in all the gospels.

way 2 go said:

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.

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I pray you don't share their error. They made two very critical errors;
1) They misunderstood Jesus
2) They decided to kill him.

w2g said:

Jesus says follow me or you are not worthy of me ,

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Correct.

w2g said:

only true if Jesus is God.

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Incorrect.

w2g said:

no ,if Jesus is not God then Jesus saying "follow me" "serve me is not honoring God.

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This would possibly be true ...... IF that was ALL Jesus said.

It is not.

I understand the theology.

Show how the sayings of Jesus are removed from context.
Of course his early followers confessed Jesus as “Lord.”

Historical archaeology tells us that Lord, Savior of the World, Redeemer and son of a God were applied to Augustus long before they were applied to Jesus. These exact exalted titles are found carved into the rock of the buildings and temples and stamped on the coinage everyone was familiar with.

The Jesus people were proclaiming that “Jesus is Lord and Caesar AIN’T."
And that was a statement of high treason.

way 2 go said:

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.




Jesus says follow me or you are not worthy of me , only true if Jesus is God.

Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.


no ,if Jesus is not God then Jesus saying "follow me" "serve me is not honoring God.

Jesus says "follow me" "serve me" because Jesus is God .

Joh 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Joh 21:19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, "Follow me."
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

Mat_4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
Deu 10:20 You shall fear the LORD your God. You shall serve him and hold fast to him, and by his name you shall swear.



only God is lord of the sabbath and Jesus is Lord of the sabbath because Jesus is God.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."
Exo_20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
Deu_6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:



Moses said "Jehovah said unto me" ,Moses spoke as a man for God
Jesus never said "Jehovah said unto me"

Jesus spoke as God for God
Joh_14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.


Jesus here is saying " his commandment"
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."

Jesus here is saying " my commandments "
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

both verses can only be true if Jesus is God

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Amen brother.

All of Scripture speaks of Him. From Genesis through the Prophets and Psalms.
It's there but their understanding is not yet open. :sigh:

aikido7 said:

Jesus was a wandering Jewish teacher.
This is a statement of FACT.

Jesus was the Son of God, Messiah, Lord...
These are statements of FAITH.

Early Christians used these faith statements and applied them to Jesus.
This, too, is a statement of FACT.

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God Himself can only be seen by faith. He is a spirit being.

He is a spirit being who took on humanity in order to provide salvation to those who believe.

If you don't believe that, you have no faith and no Saviour, either.

And that is a FACT.

genuineoriginal said:

I don't deny that Jesus Christ our Lord is the Son of God.
Do you?

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like begets like

which makes him
like the JW's say a god , which is a lie as there is only one God
or like the trinatarians say God the son

Deu_6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:


if just a man like you say , then you say he is a liar when he says this :
Joh_14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.

Dartman said:

I pray you don't share their error. They made two very critical errors;
1) They misunderstood Jesus
2) They decided to kill him.

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they understood & it would be blasphemy if Jesus is not God

Correct.
Incorrect.
This would possibly be true ...... IF that was ALL Jesus said.
It is not.

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you didn't refute any of this :think:


Jesus says follow me or you are not worthy of me , only true if Jesus is God.

Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.


if Jesus is not God then Jesus saying "follow me" "serve me is not honoring God.

Jesus says "follow me" "serve me" because Jesus is God .

Joh 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Joh 21:19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, "Follow me."
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

Mat_4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
Deu 10:20 You shall fear the LORD your God. You shall serve him and hold fast to him, and by his name you shall swear.



---

only God is lord of the sabbath and Jesus is Lord of the sabbath because Jesus is God.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."
Exo_20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
Deu_6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:



--

Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me,

Moses said "Jehovah said unto me" ,Moses spoke as a man for God
Jesus never said "Jehovah said unto me"

Jesus spoke as God for God
Joh_14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.


--

Jesus here is saying " his commandment"
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."

Jesus here is saying " my commandments "
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

both verses can only be true if Jesus is God




know the truth, and the truth will set you free

glorydaz said:

Do you deny the Father is Lord?

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I don't deny that God Almighty the Father is Lord over all, including Lord over Jesus Christ the Son of God our Lord.

JudgeRightly said:

:kookoo:

Matthew (Lion) = Jesus the Sovereign King (Jesus' lineage from David)
Mark (Ox) = Jesus the Servant (no lineage given, to be expected for a servant)
Luke (Man) = Jesus the Man (Jesus' lineage from Adam)
John (Eagle) = Jesus the I AM (Jesus describes as being "in the beginning" with God and as being God)

Matthew, Mark, and Luke were not describing Jesus as God because that role fell to John.

Note the four-headed creatures in Revelation 4 as having the head of a lion, an ox, a man, and an eagle.

God's creation is Him expressing Himself. (Just like the number three can be found not only throughout the Bible, but also throughout the universe we live in.)

To have the four gospel authors attribute to Jesus each of those four (for lack of a better word) attributes (king, servant, man, and God) only serves as evidence that He IS God in the flesh, "God with us."

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You can't find this stuff in the Bible, you can only make it up.

way 2 go said:

there is only one God

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Not quite.
The Bible says that there are many gods, but that we are to have only God Almighty as our God.

genuineoriginal said:

I don't deny that God Almighty the Father is Lord over all, including Lord over Jesus Christ the Son of God our Lord.

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In what Bible verse(s) does Jesus address, or refer to God the Father as "my Lord"? Please cite.
In what Bible verse(s) is it stated that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH? Please cite.

Even though NWL claims that Jesus Christ is not YHWH, NWL agrees with me that Scripture NOWHERE states that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH. So far, NWL has not told me whence he gets his doctrine that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH--only that he does not get it from the Bible. (I suppose the more accurate question to ask NWL would be whence his programmers/handlers from the Watchtower Society get their doctrine that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH, which doctrine they have, in turn, handed down to their servant, NWL, and programmed him to promulgate amongst their marks.)

Since NOT from the Bible, whence do you get your doctrine that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH?

Just try to pull the "You're trying to argue from silence, 7djengo7!"-shtick on me. See how well it works out for you. Don't imagine that I will fail to ask you to specify exactly

• what it is you are claiming I am arguing from silence, and
• what you are claiming is the silence from which you say I am arguing.

In John 17:3, which one of the following, two things does Jesus say?

• "thee, the only true God"
• "thee, the only person Who is the only true God"

genuineoriginal said:

You can't find this stuff in the Bible, you can only make it up.

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Since the Bible NEVER states that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH, you did not find your doctrine that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH in the Bible. So, the question is: Whence did you obtain your extra-Biblical doctrine that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH? Or, did you just make it up?

genuineoriginal said:

You can't find this stuff in the Bible, you can only make it up.

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And yet, you won't try to show me how I'm wrong.

You clearly haven't read the four Gospels and Revelation if that's your entire argument.

Go on. Read those four books and Chapter four, then study up on what the lion, the ox, and the eagle symbolize in the Bible.

Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. (The Lion)

He is the One who came not to be served, but to serve. (The Ox)

He is the Man, Christ Jesus, the Son of Man. (The Man)

He didn't just bring a message from God, like any messenger would do, He IS the Message. His entire ministry was self-centered, presenting Himself as the object of his message. (The Eagle)

Greetings again 7djengo,

7djengo7 said:

In what Bible verse(s) does Jesus address, or refer to God the Father as "my Lord"? Please cite.

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Jesus addresses God His Father as the Lord of heaven and earth in the following:
Matthew 11:25-27 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Jesus does not say, that “we are Lord of heaven and earth”, rather these verses show the relationship between Jesus and His Father, in that God the Father is separate and distinct from Jesus, and the power and authority now vested in Jesus has been given to him from the Father.

In what Bible verse(s) is it stated that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH? Please cite.

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To answer your question it is firstly necessary to define the two words translated “Lord” There are two words translated “Lord” in Psalm 110:1 and the translators have distinguished these by translating the Name of God the Father, YAHWEH as LORD and Jesus, David’s Lord as Lord. This second is the ordinary word for Lord, Ruler, Master, and is not the Name of God, Yahweh.
Psallm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Now Psalm 110:1 is one of the most quoted and expounded verse in the NT and the following is an example, and please note that the KJV translators even carried over the distinction between LORD and Lord:
Acts 2:34-36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Thus the title “Lord” here is not teaching that Jesus is Yahweh, but that God has exalted Jesus to be Lord, Ruler, Master. Your question is to some extent invalid as it ignores the fact that the Yahweh Name is incorporated in the Name Jesus and this needs to be understood to establish the true relationship of God the Father with His Son the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God. Yahweh, God the Father is revealed in and through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

7djengo7 said:

Scripture NOWHERE states that Jesus Christ is NOT YHWH

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Scripture NOWHERE states that Noah is not Moses.
Your claim is that Noah is Moses because Scripture does not state that Noah is not Moses.

JudgeRightly said:

And yet, you won't try to show me how I'm wrong.

You clearly haven't read the four Gospels and Revelation if that's your entire argument.

Go on. Read those four books and Chapter four, then study up on what the lion, the ox, and the eagle symbolize in the Bible.

Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. (The Lion)

He is the One who came not to be served, but to serve. (The Ox)

He is the Man, Christ Jesus, the Son of Man. (The Man)

He didn't just bring a message from God, like any messenger would do, He IS the Message. His entire ministry was self-centered, presenting Himself as the object of his message. (The Eagle)

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I have read the Gospels and Revelation.
What you are claiming is the purpose of each of the Gospels and your attempt to link that non-Biblical claim with the four beasts of Revelation are pure imagination and not anything that the Bible teaches.

You can rely upon your imagination to reinvent the Bible in your own image, but I won't do so.

genuineoriginal said:

Scripture NOWHERE states that Noah is not Moses.
Your claim is that Noah is Moses because Scripture does not state that Noah is not Moses.

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God told Noah to make an ark (Genesis 6).
God told Moses to make an ark (Exodus 25).

Trinitarian logic would say, "God told both Noah and Moses to make an ark, therefore they must be the same person because of that."