ECT madists and their gnostic gospel

andyc

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You don't know what you're talking about.

There is no secretive knowledge today. All that God wanted to reveal to man has been revealed. The only exception, according to Paul, are those whose minds have been blinded by Satan. Why? Because they did not want to believe. To them, the saving gospel may as well be a hidden secret because they can't see it. But they can't see it because they don't want to.

If everything but knowledge is stripped away, and even all of Christendom doesn't understand the mystery.....well.........you work it out
 

andyc

New member
Clearly, you do not understand where the MADist in general, is coming from - be it "in pretence or in truth."

What is supposedly the "pet" passage of the Dispy?

And what is the very first word of that passage?

2 Timothy 2:15 S-T-U-D-Y to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing THE -WORD - OF - TRUTH.

Nevertheless, Romans 14:5; 5:7,8.

Assuming to take the moral high ground is pretty in meaningless in this forum. I thought you would have understood this by now,
 

musterion

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...even [if nearly] all of Christendom doesn't understand the mystery.....well.........you work it out

Hey, that's exactly right, except there is no "if"! Nearly all of Christendom does NOT see it and never has! That has indeed been the state of affairs for about 2,000 years now, exactly as Paul foretold to Timothy.

So since you asked such a good question: assume for a moment MAD is correct and the vast majority (including yourself) is deceived.

What would that portend? Answer honestly.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Is there a mad doll that quotes 1 Cor 15:1-4 when you pull the string?

It is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth and I'm not ashamed of the testimony of my Lord nor of His prisoner Paul so it's in my daily conversation. The fact that you are bothered by it, shows your contempt for it.



"madists" preach 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the means by which we are saved and that salvation is by grace through faith according to Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV. Tell us all how the gospel declared in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV is not enough to save us and how salvation is not by grace through faith; not of works. We are still waiting.
 

Danoh

New member
Assuming to take the moral high ground is pretty in meaningless in this forum. I thought you would have understood this by now,

You're off there - the high moral ground, as you put it - is not to depend on who ignores it, or not; on who concludes it something other than that, or not, and so on.

Rather, that light that sits on that hill, is merely supposed to sit on that hill - for the simple reason alone - that that is - what it is supposed to do.

Regardless of whether wisdom is justified of her children, in some...or not.

Regardless of what enemy or friend it might or might not...make...

But what you are doing is what many on here do.

You are confusing your own version of their version of basing the acceptance of others on some sort of a performance based acceptance - you are confusing the result of that ever disempowering walking by sight towards others (condition based acceptance) as some sort of a sign of "why bother with the moral high ground with such."

Fact of the matter?

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

See that?

Even where Christ Himself is concerned know we NO MAN after THE FLESH."

You see this?

2 Corinthians 10:1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you: 10:2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; ) 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

The Believer's lot is to get on with the business of making up his mind, to throw in the towel, on throwing in the towel...itself.

You are where you are in your understanding.

I view that "as instructed" to - through the lens of Romans 14.

And I do so in light of, and in memory of Romans 5.

For the empowerment to view you through the lens of Romans 14, that viewing you through Romans 5 so easily enables.

Any issue on our end towards others as to their doctrine is solved by this lens I have just now herein described.

THAT is the key to how this that follows, is brought to life - even towards one's enemy, perceived, or otherwise. This here...

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Thus, you go right on ahead and assert your understanding where you are with it at this time - and whether others assert it right or wrong - until you yourself - are fully persuaded in your own mind, otherwise.

For what had been good enough for an Apostle of the Lord, should be good enough for us...

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.
 

JudgeRightly

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It is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth and I'm not ashamed of the testimony of my Lord nor of His prisoner Paul so it's in my daily conversation. The fact that you are bothered by it, shows your contempt for it.



"madists" preach 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the means by which we are saved and that salvation is by grace through faith according to Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV. Tell us all how the gospel declared in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV is not enough to save us and how salvation is not by grace through faith; not of works. We are still waiting.
[MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION] You should read this post by [MENTION=6992]heir[/MENTION].
 

JudgeRightly

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It is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth and I'm not ashamed of the testimony of my Lord nor of His prisoner Paul so it's in my daily conversation. The fact that you are bothered by it, shows your contempt for it.



"madists" preach 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the means by which we are saved and that salvation is by grace through faith according to Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV. Tell us all how the gospel declared in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV is not enough to save us and how salvation is not by grace through faith; not of works. We are still waiting.
Well said.
 

God's Truth

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[MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION] You should read this post by [MENTION=6992]heir[/MENTION].

Heir and I have been debating off and on for years. I have explained to her before that all the scripture that tell us 'believe', they do not nullify the many scriptures that say 'obey'.

People misunderstand Paul, they think he was saying to have faith and do not obey.

Paul would not ever say such a thing.

How do you ever get that a person is condemned for asking Jesus to forgive them?
 

God's Truth

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andyc calls salvation by grace through faith "alone" "gnosticism" (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV) and he wonders why he is regarded a devil.

The madists are the ones who say Paul had his own and different gospel where the secret to unlock salvation is to believe and not obey.

God has been preaching 'obey' since the beginning of time.

Paul didn't come along and preach a secret gospel that calls all 'obey' scripture 'no more'.
 

JudgeRightly

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Heir and I have been debating off and on for years.

That's sad. For you.

I have explained to her before that all the scripture that tell us 'believe', they do not nullify the many scriptures that say 'obey'.

Not one MADist that I know of makes such a claim. In fact, we state that they are both true, even though they quote-unquote "contradict." (Don't you dare accuse me of saying Scripture contradicts. That's not what I'm saying at all.)

We say that what James and the twelve Apostles taught was ONLY FOR BELIEVING ISRAEL, and NOT for Christians.
We say that what Paul says, which was given to Him by Jesus Christ AFTER He ascended, what he taught was ONLY FOR CHRISTIANS, and NOT for unbelievers (aka non-Christians).

People misunderstand Paul, they think he was saying to have faith and do not obey.

They don't think that. They know that, because that's exactly what he said. Just read his epistles.

Paul would not ever say such a thing.

Except that he did. Multiple times, in different epistles.

How do you ever get that a person is condemned for asking Jesus to forgive them?

You're delusional. Please quote the post where that claim was made.
 

JudgeRightly

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The madists are the ones who say Paul had his own and different gospel

Because that's what the Bible says. His gospel (and he calls it "my gospel" and claims ownership of it many times throughout his writings) was given to him directly from Jesus post-ascension. Jesus gave Paul grace (which if you remember from Sunday school, grace is getting something you don't deserve). Jesus (after He ascended) said to Paul "My grace is sufficient for you." Before Jesus ascended, Not once did Jesus even utter the word grace, yet well over a hundred times He mentioned law, commandment, obey, etc.

where the secret to unlock salvation is to believe and not obey.

Incorrect. Paul taught that one obtains salvation simply by accepting a gift.

When I told my wife, "I do," at our wedding, it wasn't an act of obedience, yet it changed my life forever, and the same when she said the same. What did we obey?

The same can be said about saying "I do" to Christ's question of "Do you accept this gift of salvation?". There's no obedience involved, yet it profoundly changes the individual's life simply by accepting the free gift.

You, however, say that you must do works to be saved. You (and dare I say pops) believe that one must have good works in order to earn salvation, as James says. The problem with you listening to what James says IS NOT that what he says is false, because it isn't, it's that what he said is NOT MEANT FOR YOU, a gentile. It's not even for Jews, currently, as the current oikonomia (literally, house rules) are that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, there is only one Body of Christ, because God is not currently working with Israel. When God goes back to working with them during the Great Tribulation, that's when Paul's epistles and his gospel contained therein will no longer be used for salvation, but the message in the four gospels, the beginning of Acts, James, Peter's epistles, John's epistles, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation will be the active house rules. They are currently inactive.

God has been preaching 'obey' since the beginning of time.

First of all, there is no "beginning of time." (Not going to get into that here. (See this article if you, the reader are interested, because I know GT won't read it.)

Second, God for all of eternity past has not been preaching "obey," because prior to Genesis 1:1, there would not have been anyone to be preached to.

Paul didn't come along and preach a secret gospel that calls all 'obey' scripture 'no more'.

Again, please quote the post where that claim, that Paul taught "obey no more," is made. Go on, We're all waiting.
 

God's Truth

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That's sad. For you.



Not one MADist that I know of makes such a claim. In fact, we state that they are both true, even though they quote-unquote "contradict." (Don't you dare accuse me of saying Scripture contradicts. That's not what I'm saying at all.)

We say that what James and the twelve Apostles taught was ONLY FOR BELIEVING ISRAEL, and NOT for Christians.
We say that what Paul says, which was given to Him by Jesus Christ AFTER He ascended, what he taught was ONLY FOR CHRISTIANS, and NOT for unbelievers (aka non-Christians).



They don't think that. They know that, because that's exactly what he said. Just read his epistles.



Except that he did. Multiple times, in different epistles.



You're delusional. Please quote the post where that claim was made.

Are you deliberately trying to deceive or are you ignorant?

We have to believe and obey what Jesus says. That is what Jesus says, what his apostles say, and what Paul says.

If you say Jesus wasn't telling us what to do, then you are going against obeying Jesus.

When someone tells you we have to do what Jesus says, and you say no it is not to us, then you are going against Jesus.

If you say Paul teaches that we don't have to obey, then you are going against obeying Jesus.
 

God's Truth

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Because that's what the Bible says.

No, the Bible doesn’t say ANYWHERE that Paul taught a different gospel.

His gospel (and he calls it "my gospel" and claims ownership of it many times throughout his writings) was given to him directly from Jesus post-ascension.

Hahahaha Paul also calls it God’s gospel, Jesus’ gospel, and our gospel.

Paul AND PETER call it the Gospel of God.

How about that? Now what? Peter calls it the Gospel of God, just like Paul does. Looks like that is proof that Peter and Paul preach the same gospel.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


It was God’s Law given to Moses but it was called the Law of Moses.

Saying it is the gospel of the one it was given to and preached makes it their gospel, not a different gospel, just a different person preaching it.
 

God's Truth

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Jesus gave Paul grace (which if you remember from Sunday school, grace is getting something you don't deserve).
Could you give me the scriptures that say grace is what no one deserves?

Jesus (after He ascended) said to Paul "My grace is sufficient for you." Before Jesus ascended, Not once did Jesus even utter the word grace, yet well over a hundred times He mentioned law, commandment, obey, etc.

How ignorant of you. Jesus is full of grace and came with grace that is what the scriptures say.

Incorrect. Paul taught that one obtains salvation simply by accepting a gift.
No such thing.
When I told my wife, "I do," at our wedding, it wasn't an act of obedience, yet it changed my life forever, and the same when she said the same. What did we obey?
Are you kidding? I do what? Tell me, I do what? Go ask your wife if you have to love her, be faithful to only her, you must forsake all others, and to stay with her through sickness and in health, etc.

The same can be said about saying "I do" to Christ's question of "Do you accept this gift of salvation?". There's no obedience involved, yet it profoundly changes the individual's life simply by accepting the free gift.
You are delusional. I have given many scriptures telling us to obey.
 

JudgeRightly

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Are you deliberately trying to deceive or are you ignorant?

We have to believe and obey what Jesus says. That is what Jesus says, what his apostles say, and what Paul says.

GT, you obey everything Jesus said to do in the Gospels, or at least you claim to do everything, correct?

If you say Jesus wasn't telling us what to do, then you are going against obeying Jesus.

When someone tells you we have to do what Jesus says, and you say no it is not to us, then you are going against Jesus.

Incorrect. When someone tells me that I have to follow everything Christ taught in the four Gospels, first I consider that I am not of the house of Israel, but that I'm, a Gentile, and second that Jesus only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and not the Gentiles, and I then can say, "no, I don't have to follow what Christ taught in the four gospels, because He said His message was only for them." Now, that doesn't mean I can't learn from those books, for "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

If you say Paul teaches that we don't have to obey, then you are going against obeying Jesus.

GT, I've explained this before multiple times, and it seems that each time you stick your fingers in your ears and yell "blah blah blah." (Or rather, since this is all written, you close your eyes and turn your head away as you scroll past.)

So please read carefully.

Paul says that obeying to obtain salvation no longer works. He never says, nor does anyone else say on this thread, that obedience to Christ is a bad thing or that we shouldn't obey Him.

No, the Bible doesn’t say ANYWHERE that Paul taught a different gospel.

No, not directly, of course.

But the Bible does, if you have an overview of what it says, show that Paul's message is different than that of the twelve Apostles.

Hahahaha Paul also calls it God’s gospel, Jesus’ gospel, and our gospel.

Of course he does.

But how many times do ANY of the twelve call their message "my gospel?"

They don't. Paul is the only one who calls it HIS gospel. Not one of the twelve do such, because it isn't "Peter's gospel," or "James's gospel," or "John's gospel," no, it's "their gospel," the one given to them, the one that they teach.

Paul AND PETER call it the Gospel of God.

How about that? Now what? Peter calls it the Gospel of God, just like Paul does. Looks like that is proof that Peter and Paul preach the same gospel.

No, it's not proof of any kind that the Gospels they preach are the same.



1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Good scripture, thanks for quoting it. But Peter was writing to the diaspora, just like James. He's writing to the Jewish believers (not Christians).

It was God’s Law given to Moses but it was called the Law of Moses.

Saying it is the gospel of the one it was given to and preached makes it their gospel, not a different gospel, just a different person preaching it.

So then why don't any of the twelve call it "my gospel"? It was given to each of the twelve, so why don't each of them say it's his gospel? Because their gospel wasn't given to individuals, but to a corporate entity, the house of Israel, unlike Paul's Gospel, which was given ONLY to him, an individual, because his gospel is for individuals, and not a corporate group.

The Body of Christ is an organism. It has many members, but only Christ is the head of the Body. Paul will not rule over Christians, for he is like us.

But the house of Israel is a corporate entity, a nation, if you will. It will not have one person ruling over it, but each of the twelve Apostles will rule over Israel. They each have an elevated position in the house of Israel. They are not like the rest of the Jews.
 

musterion

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GT has been asked several times to list which specific commands of Christ she obeys and which she does not.

She will not answer that question, even though she has alternately said that not everything He said is for her obedience, and at other times said that "every word Jesus spoke is for salvation." [that is a direct quote]

So instead of answering it honestly, or admitting she contradicts herself, she just keeps on accusing everybody else of not obeying Jesus as thoroughly as she does.

She's Meshak with a bigger vocabulary. And as with Meshak, the constant self-contradiction indicates there may be more than one person posting as GT. This is the internet. Such things are not impossible.
 
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