ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism
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Ask Mr. Religion
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Pelagius vs. Augustine
Pelagius vs. Augustine
Tolle lege (take up and read), Jerry: http://www.gospeltruth.net/Wiggers/wiggersindex.htm
[Note: this is a Finneyism site dedicated to Pelagianism, so you cannot claim Calvinistic bias. The site and the book in question are no friends to Augustinian thinking, but the work in question at least contains some of Pelagius' surviving words from which one can draw their own conclusions by careful study. You, of course, are free as you are wont to do, to just parrot what you read therein to bolster your views. Trust me, there is plenty of fodder in the material for you to blindly champion. :AMR: ]
Be sure to note in your reading and study of the material that Pelagius uses the phrase "with the help of the grace of God" related to man's choices to mean that it is from God's granting of free will to man to sin or not to sin and providing instruction in Scripture. This is what he means by "grace". As is typical of the heretic, Pelagius re-defines important theological terms, e.g., "grace", such that he can then banter about such phrases "the grace of God" hoping the discerning will not catch his cleverness. Fortunately, Augustine was discerning and caught all his maneuverings.
AMR
Pelagius vs. Augustine
A typical challenge of the person who wants others to do the heavy lifting, for they themselves have not even read the man to whom they align.
Tolle lege (take up and read), Jerry: http://www.gospeltruth.net/Wiggers/wiggersindex.htm
[Note: this is a Finneyism site dedicated to Pelagianism, so you cannot claim Calvinistic bias. The site and the book in question are no friends to Augustinian thinking, but the work in question at least contains some of Pelagius' surviving words from which one can draw their own conclusions by careful study. You, of course, are free as you are wont to do, to just parrot what you read therein to bolster your views. Trust me, there is plenty of fodder in the material for you to blindly champion. :AMR: ]
Be sure to note in your reading and study of the material that Pelagius uses the phrase "with the help of the grace of God" related to man's choices to mean that it is from God's granting of free will to man to sin or not to sin and providing instruction in Scripture. This is what he means by "grace". As is typical of the heretic, Pelagius re-defines important theological terms, e.g., "grace", such that he can then banter about such phrases "the grace of God" hoping the discerning will not catch his cleverness. Fortunately, Augustine was discerning and caught all his maneuverings.
AMR
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Please quote Pelagius saying that people can choose God by the exercise of their free will.
If you cannot then just admit it.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Intellectual Laziness Abounds
Intellectual Laziness Abounds
AMR
Intellectual Laziness Abounds
I can, but I will not. For once, do your own homework, Jerry. You assert there is no evidence behind your call for a quote. The burden is upon you, not me. I have done my homework.
AMR
Lol - he could just cheat and use the word search feature on his window to word search the word will
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Lon is the one who said that. But when asked for the evidence he provided nothing. It is he who didn't do his homework, not me.
Lon
Well-known member
I posted the quotes and told you if you place 'with divine aid' you'd have it right. Is it that you don't believe he would say such and such, or is it that you just want me to do leg work? I'm not understanding this request or actually, why you are asking for it.
I posted the quotes and told you if you place 'with divine aid' you'd have it right. Is it that you don't believe he would say such and such, or is it that you just want me to do leg work? I'm not understanding this request or actually, why you are asking for it.
At the time of his writing, I believe Pelagius was unregenerate, because he didn't understand New Birth / New Creation concepts. It is missing, as it was in my liberal church growing up. "He who is forgiven much, loves much. He who is forgiven little, loves little." Jesus' words. They are more important to me than Pelagius' "a little bit of divine aid." He never produced a quote that shows he understood what it means to be born again or a new creation that belongs to God. He desired only God's 'aid' in living his life. -Lon
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Lon
Well-known member
It amounts to whether Sproul or CARM are correct. I pulled the quote from there. As I said, I would have to dig for the secondary, but you can go to CARM or Sproul's website if you want the attribution. As far as me, if you add 'with divine aid' Pelagius said exactly that all over the place.
See the first line on Wikipedia, & note it does not have 'with divine aide' as a caveat and proceed on to summarized quotes from Pelagius. For instance:
See here under 'false teaching'
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
glorydaz
Well-known member
Perhaps it's because we don't actually "align" with the man. The real problem seems to be we don't buy into the depravity of man. So, the best defence against us is to say we align with this one or that one and those other heretics.
Are we born sinless? No. We are all born into Adam's sin.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Amen!
I wonder how many times it must be said, in order to shut these Pelagian heretics down?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Jerry,
You remind me of the devil taunting in the garden with his "Has God indeed said?" tactic, intended only to deceive Eve with literalistic accusatory.
Such is your M.O. And you use it in every thread you have put up on this site. It is your calling card.
"Devilish" I call it . . .
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
How can anyone be born into Adam's sin since "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 Jn.3:4)?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In what way did the devil use a "literalistic accusatory" tactic to deceive Eve?
Lon
Well-known member
I've been reading and quoting him. I'll say it again, I'm convinced he knew little or nothing of being born again or being a new creation of God. He thought a 'little bit' of divine interaction and aid was what man needed. It harkens back to Judaizing and being unregenerate. The wake of Pelagianism is liberal dead churches because the message is "you were born not needing a Savior, but a forgiver and enabler" is the central idea. Free will doctrine still has the unregenerate man, in his sin condition, in many cases (so does Reformed doctrine if a man/woman isn't regenerate, but new birth is and important Reformed doctrine. I'm not talking about "Lordship" salvation, but 'salvation' period
Lon
Well-known member
No, not true and you know better. Look at AMR's post, at least read this page of it.
You are acting like a guy who
1) claims he is Pelagian, and "didn't realize what he believed."
2) disbelieves Pelagius said this for some odd reason (Jesse M reading? He isn't that great)
3) is trying to get another to do his leg-work for him
or
4) a bit of denial and/or dishonesty
I've no idea if any of these 4 even, but I've repeatedly asked. You are trying to nail me, but nailed yourself instead, imho. You just haven't been forthright and I (and others) are seeing subterfuge. Be up front and clear please. You at the very least, know I'm doing my homework. Like Calvinism, there are some (not nearly as much) writings by him, and more writing by those called 'Pelagians.' Therefore, I am left to reading not so many direct quotes, but writing from both Pelagians and Calvinists. I have been reading both. You? -Lon
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Lon
Well-known member
:think: It seems Jerry does, else he's being petty as well as wasting time. Unless he was/is Pelagian.Perhaps it's because we don't actually "align" with the man. The real problem seems to be we don't buy into the depravity of man. So, the best defence against us is to say we align with this one or that one and those other heretics.
"Sinless" doctrine, is fairly foreign thinking in the church. Finney espoused it, but was embracing of Pelagianism as well. It might help other discussion, without accusation, to 1) discuss a view that is NOT your view of sinless doctrine because it'd not be seen as threatening, and 2) It would help us discuss tenents objectively, even with you who hold sinless doctrine with "I agree with Pelagius" or "I don't agree with that." All sinless doctrine tends to be Pelagian as descriptive, if not fully Pelagian as a view, and so it seems a safe discussion as long as you don't hear "You dirty Pelagian heretic!" Besides, its more fun to call mean ol' Calvinists that, as we all well know.